Team Play

[Matt Gwinn]

On 2001-10-19 16:24, JSDiamond wrote:
So I just took a look at your game (it is worth the money) and I have to say that I can't wait to play it!  I'm already imagining my arena entrance and stopping at the top of the ramp to lay some smack-talk down on my opponent (waiting in the ring).  This is going to be a very fun game.  

Thanks.  If you want to play the game as is it is fully playable.  THere are a couple groups running campaigns using the current rules.  My updated rules which will be available in a few weeks will have a lot more options if you want to concentrate more on the building a promotion aspect.  THe matches and Promos aspect of the game are nearly identical to what is on my site now (a few cosmetic differences) so if that's what you're interested in, knock yourself out and let me know how it goes.

If you REALLY want an updated version send me an email and I'll send you a PDF.

Just one thing though, the name is a little bit archaic.
When I look at it I think of 'Kaybee' toy stores and then the carny meaning.  I 'get it' but it just doesn't seem to mesh with the game.  It needs something BIGGER and with pyrotechnics going off.

Damned if I can think of anything, though.

I really like the name and it fits in my eyes, but I can see your point.  I can't think of anything really cool to change it to either.  Anyone else have an idea?

,Matt

[hardcoremoose]

I like the name.

Also, I still really, really like the idea of focusing on individual wrestlers, at least to a certain degree.  We've talked about this already, so most of what I post here is simply to encourage further debate, but I was totally into the "struggle to rise to greatness from nothing" when we played it.  

As it stands, though, that premise is still intact.  Your focus now is on the federation's rise to greatness, but there's no reason that the "rise" theme couldn't be explored on multiple levels.  

When we played, the part we were missing was the ability for the wrestlers' real lives to coincide with, and affect, their in-ring lives.  My character suffered from some serious emotional problems, but they didn't mean a thing when he hit the ring.  You've taken steps to correct that, but I think those "external factors" should be applied also to the federation's wellbeing.

Ratings and buyrates are one example that I know you're working with.   What about outside groups that hate wrestling, like the PTC?  What about parents suing the federation because their kid killed himself emulating his favorite wrestler?  There are more things that factor into a federation's success than merely the quality of their workers and their production values.

On a final, slightly critical note, I do think you're expecting players to create too many wrestlers.  Human Wreckage did something similar - but it's characters had far fewer stats to keep track of - and you've seen firsthand what a mess that became.  The idea of factions and of building a talent pool is great, but I'm still kind of in favor of each player focusing his attention on a single wrestler, and doing the things necessary to allow that wrestler to achieve greatness (and in doing so, leading the organization to greatness).  Real rags-to-riches stories, ya' know.

Just some food for thought, and an opportunity to discuss.

- Moose  

[ This Message was edited by: hardcoremoose on 2001-10-19 20:17 ]

[Matt Gwinn]

As it stands, though, that premise is still intact.  Your focus now is on the federation's rise to greatness, but there's no reason that the "rise" theme couldn't be explored on multiple levels.

I agree with you there.  In fact I'd really like to build on that, but at the same time I don't want players to have too much on their plate.  When players set up their PPV match they are in essence picking two wrestlers (one Face and one Heel) to concentrate on for the duration of the campaign.

When we played, the part we were missing was the ability for the wrestlers' real lives to coincide with, and affect, their in-ring lives.  My character suffered from some serious emotional problems, but they didn't mean a thing when he hit the ring.  You've taken steps to correct that, but I think those "external factors" should be applied also to the federation's wellbeing.

Good point.  I have been adding stuff to the Booker's section about how to add drama to the game using wrestler's flaws and personal lives to create plot twists.  I think part of the problem when we played was that we were playing a one shot in a limited time frame.  If I could do it again the night would have been much more exciting.

Ratings and buyrates are one example that I know you're working with.   What about outside groups that hate wrestling, like the PTC?  What about parents suing the federation because their kid killed himself emulating his favorite wrestler?  There are more things that factor into a federation's success than merely the quality of their workers and their production values.

Again, good point.  I just started working on the rating aspect a couple days ago so I still have some work to do there and that's something I'll add.  

I added some stuff today about crowd Heat and it's effect on the show.  Sometimes even a great show can suck if the fans aren't in the right frame of mind.  In regards to outside influences I also want to work in some stuff about other promotions trying to lure away your popular wrestlers.  If you have enough people to play you could actually have two or more promotions competeing against each other.  Heck, even with only a few people you can run two promotions - just play them on different days.

I also want to add in a pay scale which would be pay equals your heat time $1000 per year.  It actually factors out pretty true to life that way.  I think after a set number of matches you can recalculate a wrestler's pay and determine if the federation has enough cash to pay him.  If not, he can leave or work out some kind of special deal like creative control of matches or something.

On a final, slightly critical note, I do think you're expecting players to create too many wrestlers.  Human Wreckage did something similar - but it's characters had far fewer stats to keep track of - and you've seen firsthand what a mess that became.

17 to 20 wrestlers is quite a lot of characters, but if you think about it, game masters deal with lots of NPCs all the time and don't have much trouble.  The thing with Kayfabe is that some of those wrestlers may never even get used more than once or twice (if that) in a campaign and a basicly the job squad for the guys you choose to headline.  As I mentioned earlier, when you set up your PPV match you are basiclly picking two wrestlers that you intend to give a push to.  From a individual player's perspective everyone else is pretty much filling in the gaps.  The only thing that may not work the way you like is that you can't outright claim "this is my wrestler."

BY the way, what do you think about moving part of the game outside the arena?  Perhaps players can call for a "personal appearance" where a wrestler of their choice can do an interview on the Tonight Show or have a book signing or something like that. I can see something like that helping build a promotion's rating or a wrestler's Heat, but does that sort of thing offer enough entertainment value from a game perspective?

[James V. West]

I haven't read this entire post, but I wanted to pipe in about part of it:

I like the idea of players running more than one character and having a lot to do with creating the scenario. This is something I've been wanting to explore for a while and I'm working on a game that uses this approach.

Creating a whole group of wrestlers would be fun.

James V. West

[Mike Holmes]

Um, I'm not sure if I like the name or not. Excuse my ignorance, but whatintheheck does it mean?

Mike

[Matt Gwinn]

kayfabe n. adj. of or related to inside information about the business, especially by fans. Origin is carny jargon talk for "fake."

It's a fairly common term used in the wrestling business.  Whenever a wrestlers breaks character in an interview, or even on a show,  he is considered to be breaking Kayfabe.  Breaking Kayfabe is also a refence to letting out industry secrets.

I feel the name is very fitting to the game since it is all about the "secrets" of the business.

I understand that some people won't understand the word, but the definition is on the first page :smile:  Anyway, I think the "what the hell is that?" response may get people to take a closer look.  or not.

[Mike Holmes]

OK, that's pretty cool. Now howintheheck do you pronounce it? K-fa-b? K-fayb? what? Do you knbow the etymology? Sounds almost like an acronym or something.

Just curious,
Mike

[Matt Gwinn]

I'm pretty sure it's pronounced like  "K-Fabe", but the Fabe pat may come from the word fabricate in which case it would probably be K-Fab.  I've never actually heard the word used - only seen.

Regradless, I think I may need to change it.  I was looking online for the pronunciation and noticed that there is a Book by the same name that was published in 2000.

Damn!