[GroupDesign] Schrodinger's war: Nailing Axes

[daMoose_Neo]

If I might say, way I'm seeing it and I think my quasi give-take system tries to illustrate, is that more Trancendant knowledge means LESS "Free" Will. In my mind, the more you know, the more established and regimented the world around you becomes and the fewer options you have. If someone walked up to me on a street corner and said I was the last hope of humanity, I have several options:
1) Laugh and walk away
2) Laugh and have him commited
3) Look at him skeptically, humor him for a moment politely and walk away thinking "What a Nut"
4) Take him out for a cup of coffee, talk about it, have a good laugh

You get the point.
Now, if he says "You're the last hope of humanity and I can prove it", this additional knowledge, this proof opens some new paths for myself, but closes others. If it is irrefutable proof, I might skeptically listen with more charity, I might do my damnedest to disprove it officially and scientifically, etc etc. but eventually he might hit a point where it is beyond a doubt irrefutable...and now I have all of this knowledge of things I should know nothing about (be it philosophy, innerworkings of the world, Kewl Powerz, or what not).

As I said, I see "Free" Will as the Hosts chance to ignore/short circuit, drown out the Archivist or what not. The stronger the Archivist can make his case, the fewer actual options I have and the more guided/railroaded I (as a Host) become. (**Commence Raid of SciFi**)

Now, maybe the Archivist chose me as a Host because I have "Cyberdine Chief Officer" (5). Under this, I'm important, recognized, have high security clearance and knowledge of all of the systems and passcodes and more. The Archivist needs me to destroy the cybernetic pieces of tech we discovered at a junk yard. He has three options

1) Urge me to do it so it seems like I have the idea myself
2) Make me understand why it needs to be destroyed, which imparts knowledge of the future and intristic evil of the technology the pieces represent
3) Plow me under and do it himself.

Assuming "Burning" a Host has negetive consequences such as physical proof (bodies falling apart), loss of host's abilites and qualifications, etc. Plowing me under with Burn is out of the question- others will see whats become of my body and stop me.
Assuming I wouldn't normally destroy the one thing that could make my company millions, option 1 is right out as well as my Free Will will be sufficiantly high enough I can go "What the hell was I thinking? I'll be rich!"
Thus, an Archivist (likely our target PCs) would instead impart knowledge- "Look, I know this project sounds hopeful, but heres what happens if you do develop this technology *runs Armageddon Scenario*" and I gain a point of "Knowledge of Future Impact of Technology" (1) or whatever and lose a point of Free Will, because my character would likely say "Well, if this is going to cause Armageddon...something has to be done. I don't want to destroy it though...what else can be done?" (Another point- Archivist's Hosts should be people who, once brought to terms with the goal, should be willing to act to some degree). The Archivist could do more to drive a point home that they HAVE to be destroyed, no question.
Now, here's something else:
This character, on his way into the Cyberdine facility to discard the one control chip he believes to be the most dangerous, runs into a Dark Archivist who starts wailing away with all sorts of Kewl Powerz. The Host implores the Archivist for help, WILLINGLY. Thus, their Free Will would remain the same, but they take a Burn point for the Archivist "Defense Against Trancendant Powerz" (1) to one of their Human Traits, their choice (So he might take a point off of "Loving Father" (3), trying to keep his Cyberdine points to use to accomplish the goal).
If the Archivist reacts without Hosts request, however, he could Fade himself 1 point in his "Connection to Cosmic Truth" to allow the "Defense" powerz. We could argue then that Free Will is also dropped by a point because the Host then sees "Wait, there really is something bigger going on around me...", the Archivist sacrificing a part of himself to save the host and proceed with the mission. Or, the Archivist could Burn the Host (which is defiently a bad thing...maybe a "Dark Archivist" scale, whereby Burning a Host earns the Arch Dark Points?) to instill a cosmic ability or drive down Free Will.

[Andrew Morris]

Yeah, Nate, this is pretty much along the lines I'm thinking. But I don't really follow your comments about those mechanics if the host asks for help from the Archivist. I'll re-read it tomorrow when I'm not so tired and maybe I'll understand it then.

[daMoose_Neo]

I see it that if a Host believes and accepts the Archivst on its terms and then asks for additional assistance, their Will isn't really affected because they're already to a point they're cooperating.
If the Archivist jumps in, sacrificing part of itself, it serves to further demonstrate the truth behind its presence, thereby lowering the Will of the Host. If the Archivist simply jumps in and USES the Host, the Host is being Burned, as the cost of the Archivist abilities has to be paid by something.
Or, maybe it should go as the Archivist does with Fade...the Host accepts Burn for access to Trancendant knowledge/abilities...lowering Free Will as well, as they are turning control of themselves over to the Archivist

SO, according to this, flow of points goes:

Archivist Fade -> Lowering Free Will -> Increasing Trancendant ability in Host (of whatever kind: Information, powerz, etc)

Archivist initiated Burn -> Lowering Host's Humanity traits -> Increasing Trancendant ability in Host

Host initiated Burn -> Lowering of Free Will -> Increasing Trancendant ability in Host

Look right?

[Michael Brazier]

Nate, Andrew: would you also say that the higher ordinary human Passions rise, the lower Freewill has to be?  As I see it, the mechanics of Transcendent traits in a Host shouldn't be any different from the mechanics of Passions.  The traits come from different sources but their effects in a human psyche are similar enough to be covered by the same rules.

I've been using the metaphor of a balance scale: traits (mortal and Transcendent) are weights placed on one side or the other, and where they go is fixed; Will is another weight, but unlike the rest it might go on either side.  In this metaphor adding Transcendent knowledge can make Will irrelevant, if it goes on the heavier side, or decisive, if it goes on the lighter ...

In your Cyberdyne example: the Host you postulate (an officer of Cyberdyne) ought to be very difficult to control, inspire, or persuade into destroying the chips, because his Passions will be engaged against the idea.  Desire for survival, desire for wealth, curiosity: all these incline him to studying the chips and extracting their secrets.  The weight against destroying them in that Host's mind should be practically impossible to balance out.  A sensible Archivist would go and influence someone (the junkyard's owner, say) to whom the chips are nothing more than a random piece of junk, and who won't be Passionate if they're dropped into the trash compactor.

[Tobias]

I have constructed a mechanic for posession that works on the following assumptions:

1. Free will is not tied to Transcendent nor Human nature/passions
2. Burn is the 'erasing' of Human traits/passions - because these are hindering the archivist at some point. This does hurt the host
3. Fade is the sacrifice the archivist makes when he requires both passions from the host AND access to Transcendent powers/traits. (If the archivist does not require something from the host (now or in the future), the archivist may as well Burn the Host instead).
4. Drawbacks to Burning are that it's considered 'evil' to a degree to some archivist factions, and it may have unexpected results on the timeline.

Burning a Host & asessing Fade damage to archivist only have their ramifications on Host, Archivist AND History when departing the host (which greatly increases speed of play during posession itself).

I can post the mechanics in more details if our new Foot wants, here or somewhere else. There's even room for Satori for the Host.

[daMoose_Neo]

Yea, I would.
Because just as knowledge or proof can (personally) limit my choices, so can my own beliefs/knowledge/passions. Religious doctrines are a good example- nothing actually prevents someone from working after dark, however certain religious doctrines forbid it. Someone closely following those tennants simply wouldn't work after dark, its not an option.

As to the Cyberdine example...for some reason, thinking about "Proof" made the scene from Terminator 2 where Sarah has the T1000 take the skin off its hand to prove to the Cyberdine chief guy that YES, these ARE real in the future and they are BAD! BAAAAD! jumped to mind. For our game, yes, the Archivist would more likely jump back to a junkyard worker and trash the chips and no one would be the wiser.

*ponderage*
I keep seeing Free Will sitting in between Host and Archivist. A Host can gamble some, Fading themselves to try to influance or affect the Host some way. TELLING a Junk Yard Worker to "destroy those things over there" is easy as telling the Cyberdine CEO "Destroy the Chips". Whether they do it or not is another story. Ponderage is this: Host gets chance to resist Archivist based on if a request for Action contridicts a Passion, in which case the Host gets a bonus based on their Passion and their remaining Free Will. Such are characters like Frodo, who, at the end, even knowing all that he did, was consumed by the Passions of the One Ring, which overrode everything else.
IE
With the Yard Worker whos Passion might be "A Good Days Work", the command/request is just another part of the day, Free Will for the command is totally avoided because it doesn't conflict the passion. He destroys the chip.
With the Cyberdine Officer, he has a Passion "Develop the Technology" that conflicts with the command. Depending on how the Archivist has approached the Host, several things can happen.
Arch: "destroy the chips" *Request*
Host: "But I don't want to! I can get rich!" *Passion prevents it*
Arch: "Here's what happens if you don't" *Archivist Fade 1 pt , lowers FW 1 pt. gains "Influance" (1), Host gains "Knowledge of Future" (1)*
Host: *check is made, Passion overrides Free Will* "Okay, so we need to stop the future, but there has to be another way, it can't be these Chips that cause Armageddon."  

Mechanic Summary for Requests conflicting with Passions:

Passions (X) Values-
Host: "Develop Technology (6)"
Archivist: "Connection to Cosmic Oneness (10)"

Free Will (X) Value- (Host: Free Will (X), Archivist: Influance (X))

Roll Passion (+Bonus FW) vs. Trancendant Request (+Bonus Influance)

Passion > Request = Host doing their own thing
Passion < Request = Host aquiessing position/agreeing to assist

Requests that Coincide with Passions:
The Host will go along with it, concious of the Archivist or not because its something they already Want.

Also - Impromptu Abilities- classify them under a Passion or such- so that "Connection to Cosmic Oneness" could be narrated/used to include "Knowledge of the Future" at some value. Fade/Burn coming off of the Passion total would also affect these lesser defined abilities.

Just tossing stuff out/a brain dump. Feel free to massacre it ^_^

[Tobias]

quick dump, gotta run, post more tomorrow:

How about this (as an alternative, but also trying to capture the previous sentiments).

1. There is no 'Free Will' score. Why not? Well, there's the aspect of protagonism for the Host/Archivism symbiont (remember that in the early days we thought of Host/Archivist as fairly closely linked - no roll needed to posess, for instance, no dual-player characters, no GM controlling the host against the player archivist, etc.) There's also the fact that Transcendence might be linearly related to Free Will, but who knows if it's a normal or inverse relationship? In fact, I think it's more likely that it's disconnected, both Transcendence and Human nature imposing freedoms and restrictions on free will.

2. There are, however, 'Human-ness' (using the kludgy term to avoid 'humanity' and suchlike) and 'Archivist-ness'. Human traits for humans are called Passions (leading to associated skills), human traits for Archivists are called Values (also leading to associated skills), Transcendent knowlegde traits also lead to kewl powerz.

3. The archivists once started as human. (Remember they need to be somewhat comprehensible to us players). They gained something, they lost something.

What is a human? Someone who's 100% human. Let's say, a Human-ness score of 10.

What's an archivist? A being who's less human. Say 50 %. So, 5 passions, 5 trans. Knowledge (with associated 5 power).

What does Human-ness mean? Well, it's what's important to you. So, say passions are, loving father (3), alcoholic (2), cyberdine engineer (4), sportsman (1) = 10, fully human. (Although I'm not sure negative traits should be in here, but that's for another time).

So you become an Archivist. Say, your Human side that stays is Loving father (3), cyberdine engineer (1), sportman (1), and you gain the archivist Knowledgez of Insight into Nature (2), All things are Connected (3) = 10.

To every Knowledgz, a Powerz is linked. For this example, Angels on a Pin (2), There is No Door (3).

It's helpful, at this point, to imagine a character sheet for the archivist with a big circle on the left, and to the right a column with Human values and Transcendent Knowledgez (and derivative Powerz). Hosts would be their own, smaller sheet (1 column as well) that would fit flushly on the left of the character sheet. Hosts also have a trait called 'Burn'.

Once a host is posesses, there will be an overload - 20 points of 'being' could maximally be trying to fit in a 10-point shell. Something's gotta go. Now, the Archivist can choose not to manifest fully, but he needs to be 'in' for at least 1 point. (TANSTAAFR).

Being 'in' translates as Burn. So, with 1 point of burn, you're able to manifest at least 1 point of your archivist nature in the host. There's a catch, though: Transcendent knowledge/power is not divisible: you have to manifest the whole 'chunk' of it, or nothing of it.

For each point of Burn, you need to scratch off 1 point of Passion from the Host. You're all-powerful in this as the Archivist – there's no resistance possible. However, the Host also loses the associated skills from the passion – so as an Archivist, it's best to 'erase' existing, non-useful passions at first.

While posessing, there's true symbiosis going on. If the Archivist nature 'relaxes', the Host will go about his business given the current goals/passions the host has. If the Archivists (who can control everything, thoughts, movement, etc., which feels natural to the Host while this is going on (explaining stuff away as he goes along)) wants to do something that conflicts with the Hosts's passion, the Host pits his Passion strength in opposition to the Archivist's manifested control (very similar to the old presence mechanic), So, a Cyberdine Engineer, unburnt, may have a passion of 4. To overcome this, the Archivist may raise the burn to 4 to at least match the passion, and the symbiont is assumed to continue on his actions, marginally decided in favor of it. (Of course, the Archivist may also burn off the Cyberdine Engineer Passion, thus directly lowering opposition to the current intended action(s), and therefore requiring less Burn overall, but that might drop Cyberdine Engineer skills (which are associated) as well, and that might be undesired).

At some point, the Archivist may not want to Burn any more from the Host, but still want to increase manifestation (for instance, Powerz). In that case, the Archivist accepts 'Fade' (which means some of his Human Values will be removed and replaced by Human Passions).

Need to implement:

1.   All Fade/Burn effects are calculated when the Archivist leaves the host (speeds play)
2.   All effects on the timestream are also calculated then (burning your host can impact the timestream – he's different, after all)
3.   Passions (& their removal) might positively impact the desired timestream changes or negatively (or both, uncertain)
4.   You cannot burn out/suppres/satori any human traits you still have as well
5.   you can also transfer human traits
6.   there are advantages and disadvantages to having compatible human traits
7.   2. transcendant knowledge is only transferrable whole-block
8.   additional point of burn if you wholly remove a category
9.   fade is the amount the archivist is supressed by. fade can increase if
10.   all hosts are JUST AS HUMAN at 10 - unless tampered with
11.   leaving a host with less than 10 is hurtful
12.   difference between used archivist aspects without revelation/satori (which burns), or with satori
13.   reveal your archivist nature, OR reveal something transcendent

(if this all seems similar to presence, or unclear, try accounting with coins in the circle, and keep needing to balance host manifestation vs. archivist wishes)

[Andrew Morris]

I'm going to post my "Grand Unified Theory" in a bit, but I didn't want to neglect the recent activity on the thread. So here's my rundown of the points that really stood out for me:

The Archivist must somehow hammer down the Host's Free Will to a balanceable point: where the Arch can guide the host and take action when needed, but not enough to Destroy the Host.

The Arch can Fade itself to transfer some Trancendant Quality to the host

I'm seeing the free will, at the moment, as the Host's ability to accept or reject the Archivist.

Under either model, "Free Will" is an attribute of Hosts and other humans -- it's meaningless for Archivists (including, I'd argue, NPC Archivists) because (a) they're the protagonists (b) no one's able to Possess them.

Agreed with all of this.

I see it that if a Host believes and accepts the Archivst on its terms and then asks for additional assistance, their Will isn't really affected because they're already to a point they're cooperating.

I'll buy this. Now we've got to figure out how to represent this, which I'll try to include in my next post.

Andrew: would you also say that the higher ordinary human Passions rise, the lower Freewill has to be?

No, I'm seeing it differently. Free Will can be used to resist giving in to your passions, if need be.

Burning a Host & asessing Fade damage to archivist only have their ramifications on Host, Archivist AND History when departing the host (which greatly increases speed of play during posession itself).

I agree that it would speed play, but it seems so much cooler to have it happen instantly. Your take on Burn and Fade seems similar to what I'll propose in a bit, though, so check that out.

There is no 'Free Will' score.

While we don't need it, I think we should have it. As was mentioned earlier, human free will is unpredictable, and even if nothing else in the system was Fortune-based, Free Will would be a good candidate for it.

[daMoose_Neo]

I'm really liking the idea of having a "Free Will" score that fluctuates with regard to Passions, how much the Host believes the Archivist and wants to assist.
It also provides a balancing scale. Discussion's moved away from the dual axes we were originally looking at, but Free Will/Trancendant Influance works as a sliding scale here. Does the Host have the want and will to resist the Archivist?

One other thing Tobias- it struck me just as I sat down with my cocoa that humans don't use 100% of their mental capacity...so, theoretically, we could have an extra-temporal entitiy hitching a ride and not notice a thing if they didn't make any overt actions. Thus, that kind of balancing may need not apply.

Re: Application-
I agree that doing it real time/in play would be cooler. Might make for a little more crunching during play, but then you can make on the fly alterations to the balance the scales. Make for more climactic situations too...its down to the wire, all the pair has to do is X, and suddenly the Dark Arch shows up! The Archivist knows they MUST succeed...and can, too! BUT...will they do it at the cost of the Host, who is almost dead, barely alive by his own will, or will the Archivist sacrifice himself, allowing the Host to live and see the better world?
Applying things retroactively can't get that kind of fun~

[Andrew Morris]

Okay, here's my Grand Unified Theory. Hopefully, this ties everything together in a way that combines what's been suggested so far with a slightly new way of bringing it all in.

There are 10 key traits (or subset of traits), five of which are Archivist-specific and five of which are host-specific. Each of the five has a corresponding trait in the other set of five. The interrelations between these traits are not all linear, and sometimes cross over. However, I think they map pretty closely to what I see as being the "logical" interrelations between host and Archivist.

Archivist Traits[/u]
Transcendence -- This is the measurement of the quintessence of what makes the Archivist what he is. In some sense it is a measurement of raw (potential) power. This should be defined as some arbitrary range of numbers greater than Humanity (defined below). Let's say it's a range from 1 to 21.

Otherworldly Knowledges -- This is a subset of traits that measure the Archivist's knowledge of "things man was not meant to know." Ex. -- All Things Are Connected (2), Lost Lore of Atlantis (6), True Timeline History (5), etc.

Logoi -- This is a subset of traits that measure the Archivist's ability to manipulate, alter, and control the physical world. In other words, Kewl Powerz. Ex. -- Laser-Beam Eyes (3), Inhuman Strength (4), Molecular Disintegration (2), etc.

Skills -- This is a subset of traits that measure the non-Transcendent abilities of the Archivist, be they remnants from their human existence, or things they've learned after becoming an Archivist. Ex. -- Gunsmithing (2), Piloting (1), Great Library Research (4), Archivist Politics (3), etc.

Fade -- A measure of the "psychic trauma" suffered by the Archivist. Fade will decrease over time, but very slowly. Enough Fade will cause damaging effects, such as loss of traits. (Yes, I know Fade and Burn have been used for both host and Archivist, but I'm taking a stance here that Fade is exclusive to Archivists, just as Burn is exclusive to hosts.)

Host Traits[/u]
Humanity -- This the measurement of the quintessence of what makes a host human. It is a measurement of the host's vitality and lifeforce. This should be defined as an arbitrary number range less than the range of Transcendence. Let's define it as a range from 1-13.

Free Will -- This is a measurement of the host's ability to resist compulsion in any form, specifically including Archivist control. Free Will can never be higher than Humanity. If Humanity ever drops lower than Free Will, Free Will is reduced to equal the new Humanity score.

Passions -- This is a subset of everything that really matters to the host; the things that drive them. Passions are a source of greatness, be it good or evil. Ex. -- Love of Order (3), Creative Impulse (2), Hates Men (1), Loves Puzzles (5), etc.

Skills -- This is a subset of traits that measure the non-Transcendent abilities of the host. Ex. -- Gunsmithing (2), Piloting (1), Research (4), Politics (3), etc.

Burn -- A measure of the physical deterioration suffered by the host due to the presence of the Archivist. Burn never goes away. Enough Burn will cause damaging effects, such as loss of traits, blindness, rotting flesh, loss of limbs, etc.

How The Traits Interrelate[/u]
Transcendence and Humanity -- Quite simply, whichever is higher is who controls the host/Archivist fusion. An Archivist can increase their Transcendence at will (up to their maximum) and decrease it as easily. This represents the Archivist putting more or less of their own power into the host body. There should be some mechanical means that this can cause Humanity to decrease (not always, but the risk should be there). Whether we do this through a Fortune mechanic  ("oops, rolled low, Humanity drops by one") or a resource-allocation mechanic ("okay, I increase Transcendence by nine, which reduces the host's Humanity by three") is something we can decide later.

Otherworldly Knowledges and Free Will -- The more the Great Cosmic Truth is revealed to the host, the less able they are to choose their own path through life. Thus, as Otherworldly Knowledges are bestowed on the host, Free Will is decreased.

Passions and Logoi -- The more an Archivist uses their Logoi, the more the host's Passions or Humanity (player's choice) are decreased.

Skills -- If Archivist skills are used through a host, the host takes Burn. If host skills are used, there is no effect on the Archivist.

Fade -- This increases from a variety of actions, which aren't fully defined yet, but will certainly include when host Passions increase and when Humanity increases, whether from the Archivist's own actions or any other reason.

Burn -- This increases from a variety of actions, which aren't fully defined yet, but will include at least: when Passions are reduced, when Humanity is reduced, when the Archivist uses his own Skills through the host, when the host's Skills are increased by the Archivist, and when Logoi are used through the host.


Examples of Play[/b]

1. An Archivist wants his host to dive out an 82nd floor window. Naturally, the host's Passion of Survival (5) and Achieve Success (3) get in the way. Along with the host's Free Will of 7, this is 15 points against the action happening. The Archivist has a maximum Transcendence of 10 (he's new) so he can't just overpower the host. Instead, he opts to Burn the host: removing the Survival (5) Passion, he replaces it with the Logos Flight (5). The host now has a Logos that the Archivist can use at will, and has taken 5 points of Burn. In addition, the host only has 10 points to resist the Archivist now, and since the Archivist also has 10, the host is forced to do what the Archivist wants.

2. Using his host's Firearms (4) Skill, an Archivist takes out several street thugs. All but one are killed, and he is running away, dodging wildly. The Archivist uses the host's Firearms (4) Skill, along with his own Statistical Analysis (4) Skill (to determine where the thug will dodge next, of course) and takes him out with the combined 9 points. The host takes 4 points of Burn.

3. A Dark Archivist takes over a willful host, and decides to fry him right off the bat, so there won't be any trouble later on. Manifesting 15 points of Transcendence into the host forces the host's Humanity (12) to Humanity (0). This also brings Free Will (11) down to Free Will (0). The host has lost 12 points of Humanity and 11 points of Free Will, for a total Burn of 23. Ouch!

[Sydney Freedberg]

Wow. I think my brain may be suffering Burn right now.

I see some potent arguments that Transcendent knowledge can potentially act against Free Will: you know What Must Be Done -- e.g. Nate's Terminator example. But I can also see situations where Transcendent knowledge opens up options you didn't know about and gives you, potentially, more freedom -- in theory The Matrix is all about this. (And as the traitor character in that movie shows, even once you have Transcendent knowledge of What Must Be Done, you can use your Free Will to refuse to do it....).

So I'd agree with Michael and Tobias, that Free Will is not linked to Transcendence one way or another. I'd further tend to agree with Michael (and disagree with Tobias) that Free Will should probably have a statistical value in-game that can be thrown into the scale on either side.

On the other hand, I find Tobias's outline of a mechanic intriguing; I also am interested in Andrew's. And I think we definitely need to ground this discussion in definite mechanics very soon or we'll wander off all over the landscape and get hopelessly lost. On the other other hand, these mechanics proposals deserve their own thread, because this one is already approaching unmanageability. I want to wrap it up and move on.

Okay. So using my Mighty Foot Powers, here's the plan:

A) No more posts to this thread for the moment. (If you're burning to respond to something somebody just said, including this post, please PM me).

B) Everyone please PM me, as soon as possible, with your answers to the following two questions:
  1) Is Free Will mechanically tied to Transcendence (either it always goes up when Transcendence goes up, or it always goes down when Transcendences go up), or is Free Will an independent variable not tied to Transcendence? (Which doesn't mean it's necessarily a numerical stat; as Tobias states, it can just be an aspect of pratagonism; we're not answering that question today).
 2) Is Transcendence purely about "supernatural"/"superpowered" abilities, or does it also include scientific, artistic, mystical, etc. insight into the True Nature of the Universe?

C) Once I've given everyone a few days to vote, I'll calculate the results and post (to this thread) what we've collectively decided. Then I'll close this thread.

D) Meanwhile, Tobias and Andrew and anyone else with a mechanic in mind, please work on it and get it into presentable form. Once we've closed this thread, I'll open a new "draft mechanics" thread and ask everyone to post their drafts to it -- bearing in mind that draft mechanics should abide by the results of the vote (C, above) on what the natures of Transcendence and Free Will are.

I don't mean to throw cold water on a fiery and creative discussion, I simply think it's time to establish a common baseline to stand on, take a deep breath, and then dive into the deep waters of mechanics.

[Sydney Freedberg]

To everybody: Thanks for your patience.
To self: Pose future poll questions in simple yes/no terms so people don't have to engage in lengthy PM exchanges to clarify their answers...
To everybody, redux: If I still misunderstood, and thus misrepresent your position below, please PM me!

Now, to take the two "poll" questions in reverse order:

2) Is Transcendence purely about "supernatural"/"superpowered" abilities, or does it also include scientific, artistic, mystical, etc. insight into the True Nature of the Universe?

Everyone came down on the "insight" side of this question. So we have a consensus there for the broader definition.

1) Is Free Will mechanically tied to Transcendence (either it always goes up when Transcendence goes up, or it always goes down when Transcendences go up), or is Free Will an independent variable not tied to Transcendence?

Tobias, Doug, Michael, and myself all came down for Free Will being mechanically independent of Transcendence.
Nate said Free Will is tied to Transcendence -- specifically, inversely: the more Transcendence the Host gains, the lower the Free Will.
Andrew said Free Will is tied to Transcendence, inversely, but indirectly: The more Transcendence the Archivist puts into the Host, the lower the Host's Humanity, which can lower the Host's Free Will (to simplify Andrew's argument greatly).
So this is a 4:2 or 4:1:1 vote depending on how you look at it. That's clearly a win (a 2/3 supermajority, even) for "no direct mechanical tie between the two traits" but equally clearly it's not consensus. I'd interpret that as meaning we should not be considering mechanics where increasing Transcendence lowers Free Will directly every time, but we should allow leeway to consider mechanics where one of the possible effects of increasing Transcendence could be a decrease in Free Will.

I'll give everyone till the end of today to PM me with any concerns they have on my interpretation of people's votes and the overall results, and then late tonight or early tomorrow start a new thread where we can post and dissect draft mechanics.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Postscript: Both Nate and Andrew PM'd me to say they're comfortable with having no automatic link between Transcendence and Free Will, so we're all on the same page.