Hybridisation of the RPG and CCG model

[daMoose_Neo]

-_-
The market for a CG is totally different than it is for an RPG. The core material will satisfy almost any RPG gamer, those who really enjoy will pick up the additional stuff.
You also have players in the RPG market who'll pick up a new game when they see it- drop $20, read the book, run a game or two or religate it to the bookshelf to thumb through when you need some inspiration for a new game or session.

CG Gamers are not like that, and I'm not damning CG designers (I'd rather not like to damn myself), but its irresponsible for a CG designer not to take the CG player mentality into account.
Magic is THE model for CG gaming. Folks have, for 11 years, been deluged with around 3 expansions a year, highly regulated tournament systems, ultra rare cards they have to mortgage their homes over in order to possess, and shallow reprint after reprint. This is what players are used to, this is what players expect.
There is no "independant CG" scene like there is for RPGs, so the control and innovation still lies with the suits, and this is what they produce.
Thus, here is how they look at it-

1) How much does it cost me to get started WITH MY OWN DECK? CG players like to customize, take advantage. These are, without a doubt, the ultimate munchkins. They want to know the power cards, and what it will take to get them.
1a) What will it cost to get what I want? Almost the same as #1, but slightly different- what some folks play with and what they want aren't always the same. I know some kids and older folks even who played the Pokemon CG who desperatly want a Charrizzard. Not because they really needed it for their deck, but because, come on, this is Charizzard we're talkin about! I HAVE to have it!
2) How many people play? If theres not many, they won't pick up the game, because they'll have no one to play with. A game that not many people know of or play without major corporate backing isn't likely to be at every FLGS, so even if they DO buy something, their friends won't be able to play without the hassle of trying to see if it can be ordered online.
3) What am I already playing and what does that cost? This is a huge factor as well- how much free money does this person have to spend on yet ANOTHER CG? If they're already playing three other games, its difficult to get them to pick up another CG, because of #1- their money is already allocated to the next Magic precon decks, the next Yugioh booster release, the next Pokemon boxed set and they need a couple more Yu Yu Hakusho boosters to get Card X.
4) Whats the release schedule, whats already available? This is an odd one- too many expansions with too short a release period and they'll be turned off, in their mind its too much to keep up with, too much to buy. Too few, however, and the game must not be successful enough. Too long between releases and its the same. Around two releases per year, rather evenly spaced, one in summer, one in winter, seem to be satisfactory.

Other factors-
- Artwork is under more scrutiny. RPGs routinely use interior B/W images, not always too complex, but very nice, very appropriate pieces. CGs have artwork everywhere, full color, highly detailed. This is what players expect to find, and will be quite disappointed without it. As long as it fits the genre or original lisence, thats fine, but it does have to meet a higher standard.
- Ease of rules is important here too. Not many CG gamers sit at the table with a copy of the rulebook, they trust that their initial readings (usually once or twice) and their friends instruction to be 100% correct. RPGs, on the other hand, usually don't start unless theres some kind of reference handy. Its just not in the CG players mindset to have that with them. Thus, the CG rules need to be easy, obvious, and self explanitory, not so players don't need the rulebook but because, rule-of-thumb, players WON'T have a rulebook with them at all games.
Case in point, Last tournament I held for Twilight, I had an interesting situation. One of the kids spoke to me before the event all excited by his deck, how he had it so customized...and had me thoughly confused. At the tournament, I double checked the decks, and sure enough, his deck was illegal- violated one of THE most basic rules in deck construction. The kid in question proceeded to argue with me about it, but not too long- Pointed right in the rules where the deck construction clause was, right in plain sight, at the beginning of the booklet. He knew the system well, just there were parts he glazed over, and as I said, likely played with the rulebook out once. In an RPG, a player's first reaction (in my experiance) has been to whip out a rulebook and look it up or let it slide- with a CG, players don't do that, and you can't quite let things slide.


A CG is a different creature than an RPG, and CG players are different creatures than RPG players. Even folks who play both respond differently to both systems, because they are so radically different.
A CG player will not simply buy one deck. They'll look at the game, the system, run their own version of that list above through their mind, and either walk away, or buy a stack of cards. Thats the mentality.

[greedo1379]

I'm not going to argue with any of the points you've made.  You have described the stereotypical CCG player to a "T".  

There is no "independant CG" scene like there is for RPGs, so the control and innovation still lies with the suits, and this is what they produce.

This however threw me a bit.  This still just smacks of "you don't have a chance so why bother."  Which seems especially strange since you are producing your own card game.

[Callan S.]

Stereotypical or not, it hasn't answered my question. The CG players mentality doesn't turn my 'the basics is all you need' example into a blood sucking design. About the only basis for argument it gives is that all CG players are like alcoholics and that even by producing a light beer, that beer is an evil design since they'll buy tons of it, consuming it without thought.

It's a little 'think of the children!' for me. Anyway, I've said my piece so I wont waste forge space repeating it further, in arguement.

[daMoose_Neo]

This however threw me a bit.  This still just smacks of "you don't have a chance so why bother."  Which seems especially strange since you are producing your own card game.

Because its true.
Its a complex matter, but thats what it boils down to. For the moment, the suits have the power because they have the power, a weird catch 22. Until someone with the resources can break through the established system and start changing minds, CCGs will always be built around the same systems, because thats what sells. We're not going to see much in the way of independant innovation because of the cost to break in- thousands for the printing per set, as much for artwork sometimes. Without the innovation something like the developers here produce, the companies will continue to do things their way. And until the cost comes down or a way is found like PDFs did for the RPG Books, independant developers simply can't break in.

[komradebob]

Stupid practical question:
Why not simply size the cards in such a way that they could be printed on sticky backed paper, cut out and placed over the face side of standard playing cards? They need to be smaller, to allow straitline cutting as opposed to the rounded corners of most regular decks, but that shouldn't cut down size for art and text too much.

For deck customization, why not simply give cards a point value, as they do with miniatures in GW wargames? Decks could then be simply compared on that value. Perhaps certain combos of cards could increase their value pointwise, especially if they are specifically designed to be used together.

As for expansisons and profit, simply have the things as low cost pdfs. Who cares how many copies are printed? Someone pays for the initial purchase, then prints as many as they need. If the game really takes off, then maybe the designer uses the profits to print an official copy of the game. This seems to be a method used by rpg designers who initially offer freebie rulesets (that build up a following), then release a pdf or hardcopy later for folks that want one. A recent thread in the publishing forums suggested this strategy had worked for indie rpgs. Why not for customizable card games?

Besides, a certain kind of gaming elitism sells really well. I've certainly played a lot of WH40k with non-GW minis and even paper proxies. But I wouldn't think of showing up at game shop or convention ( even a non-GW sponsored one) with something like that. People could certainly play with homemade decks with their pals, but "real" players would want to have the commercial stuff.

I think that the comments on having expansions on a regular basis is also telling, and does point to a marketing strategy. Having a core set available, with some expansions already in the queue is probably a good idea, especially if this was to be a commercial venture. Also, after a certain point, why not sell just the expansions and release the inital core pdfs as freebies? This is sort of the opposite of rpgs, which seem to release supplements to boost sales of core materials. Instead, it plays into the CCGamer urge to get the newest and bestest stuff firstest, while potentially expanding your market to new players. Again, I would compare this to the GW example, where they have released a number of their specialist games (Necromunda, Inquisitor, etc) as free downloads, presumably to sell off the backstock of miniatures and also prime their fans for future revised versions if the interest is there.

On the plus side, that strategy allows for a lot of playtesting prior to going to print. CCGs are imfamous for going to print without forseeing vicious card combos, and later having to adjust rules to make up for it.

As for some of the less pleasant aspects of CCGs, I seem to recall that it wasn't some part of an evil mastermind's secret plan for world domination. Instead, it was a combination of qualities that lead to a new form of hobby.
1) Cheap initial buy-in.
Sure we ended up spending gobs of money over time, but it was generally in bite-sized chunks. This made it easier to accumulate even on a limited budget.

2) It referenced baseball cards.
There was something inherently familiar about the packaging, and the joy of busting open a pack of cards to see what goodies were inside is hard to beat. I still think it should have been sold with a stick of hard bubblegum, though.
3) Short rules:
Not always particularly helpful, and we certainly ran into the same pitfalls of cursory understanding as mentioned above. However, the bulk of the rules fit in a short document meaning initial time to play was small. Most of the rules exceptions and variants are on the cards themselves.
4) It was competitive.
Even folks that don't "get" rpgs can still understand competition from experience with other games, thus a bigger market. Plus, it can be fun to show up your best pals and not feel bad about it.
5) It was portable.
Take a deck that fits in your pocket and head for your favorite coffee shop. A small two top is big enough to play most CCGs ( not Jyhad, but y'know...). Not a backpack of heavy hardcover books.
6) Play time is quick (generally)
A match up over lunchbreak? Sure, no problem.
7) Downtime hobby activity.
What? They bested your weenie deck? Think about it while watching Friends. I'm sure you'll come up with something to nail the SOB next time...
8) Rampant consumerism.
You're going to spend your gaming dollars somewhere. CCGs give at least a gambler's chance that doing so will lead directly to enhanced in-game capability. Buying extra rulebooks and supplements for your favorite rpg may or may not do this. Also, at least among my group of friends, costs are spread out among all players. No more Mr. GM buys 16 books, players buy their clanbook, maybe.
9) Infectious.
This relates to #8 and #1. If you ever played a CCG for a little while, you inevitably built up a collection of extra cards. Some were crap, but some were useful, but you just had them in greater than necessary numbers. Almost as inevitably, you'd meet someone who was curious about the game and you'd pawn off a bunch of that stuff on them. They'd be competitive, but not as competitive as you with your more complete collection. They'd want some payback, and thus another CCG junkie was born.
10) Most CCGs are designed for two people dueling ( again, not Jyhad).
You only need to make arrangements for play around one other person's schedule, not 4 or more.  Combined with #6, this becomes even easier to do.

Err, soorry for the long post. Too much caffeine...
Robert
[edited for stuff...]

[daMoose_Neo]

Nah, good post, good analysis.
#1 is a wonderfully idealistic vision. Thats what I loved about the older sets of Magic and older designs, such as the first few Pokemon sets (which actually are about as old as most of the Magic expansions I like to play) and even Overpower. You got some kick azz stuff, a little chaff, but mostly stuff you could use, it was great. The thrill of opening a pack and finding an awesome card thats perfect for your deck is a very nice rush.
You're right about the lack of an evil master plan. CCGs started, and many still play, all in good fun.

#8 and #9 at this point are the trouble spots for new games. Finding a way to do a decent PDF distribution would be key in breaking this down, and I'm really keen on finding a way to do it.
#8 is a bind because of the aforementioned titles which are saturating the market. The players are literally hooked and because of the cycle the companies employ, the players who are dedicated are locked in with it. I'll agree with the playtesting too- the companies are very poor at it. Actually, looking at the latest sets for Magic, I see little playtesting, no need for it when 98% of the set is a reworded, recosted reprint. The few real innovations are broken and quickly "edited" or banned, which is truly regretable. But, the companies are responding to problems in fan demand and their own enforced tournament cycle. Rather than allow all sorts of sets in the tourny scene and proceed to design for the sake of design, they lock in what can be used, essentially forcing them to reprint or revise cards to keep the fan base happy, another nasty cycle.
Whats made lasting titles so far in the market is the extensive tournament support. Yu-gi-oh sponsors events at retailers, Magic has World Tours, Pokemon has major events and tournaments, and each have hundreds or thousands of dollars in prize money to award. Even Upper Deck's VS system jumped right into the thick of things with a tournament system quite similar to Magic with the stated intent of taking them on on their own turf.
And that leads to #9. Infectious works when you have people who love playing, and any game can be infectious. Existing CG Gamers are a hard crowd to draw if you don't have the above. While very rare, new CG gamers however are a blast. They've seen them played, they've looked at the cards, but finally there is a game they actually GET. That was the coolest thing for me at GenCon.

Re: Print methods
As I said, I am VERY keen on finding a way to do this. Not only would it be a great boon to players and designers all over, it'd save *me* thousands of dollars, lol. It'd also give rise to the kind of innovation the market currently lacks, the kind of innovation the posters here at the Forge help provide for Indie RPGs. CCGs don't have that right now, because there is no way to effectively produce an indie title.
On a more serious note, I AM trying some things, and I'd like to see others do so I suppose. The methods you're suggesting are a little too crude and too much labor for your average CG Gamer. An Indie fan who wants to try something new maybe, but that much work to create a deck? Printing 60+ cards, cutting them out, sticking them to decks, thats alot of work.
My approach is take advantage of home office supplies. Avery business cards ^_^ Trying the approach with Twilight, and that CCRPG Hunters thread I referenced.

My *biggest* problem was with the initial concept of this thread, the idea of a collectable role playing game. I have my own issues with the current CCG market, but it really went against my grain to suggest artificially limiting something that, really, is unlimited. Hunters, oddly, shows some promise, even when it was started as an experiment to see what a collectable RPG would be. Who knows, maybe it'll fly, and it might even help point a way to a decent PDF CG model.
Like any other medium, when handled properly, a CCG is a wonderful game with its own benefits.

[ Addendum ] I just remembered something...Twilight was originally written to be distributed on the net, a downloadable text file, lol. Copy the rules text onto a 3x5 index card and play, lol. Gotta love old notes.

[komradebob]

There is a thread over on rpgnet regarding card resorces. The link is in a post one or two down the page. Would this help?

http://rpg.net/showthread.php?t=163530

Robert

[M. J. Young]

I got this from John Corradin of http://www.daysofknights.com/">Days of Knights, and have been meaning to do it (to the point of having gotten the materials) in working with the proposed Multiverser CCG.

Most stores that sell cards also sell deck protectors. We got a couple packs of fifty pretty cheap. The beauty of the deck protector is you can print your cards on ordinary paper, cut them, and slip them in the protectors--this hides the back and standardizes the sizes and shapes of all the cards, while making them stiff enough for play.

In reading this, I've suddenly wondered whether there's a potential marketing strategy in a PDF approach done a bit differently.

Rather than attempt to print up several thousand cards for use in our playtesting and so create random decks, I'm planning on designing the cards and then letting the playtesters pick which ones they want--thus printing only the ones they choose. I'll probably group them nine to a sheet and print them in sheets--but I don't really have to do that. It could be possible to create each card as its own card-sized PDF and then sell them individually. It would be pennies a card or something, with pricing based on desired rarity. Players would then buy the individual cards they want, print as many as they desire of these, and build their own decks. There would be no weeding through the junk in scores of packs to get the good cards--you would just order the cards you thought you would use, and put them in the deck. I imagine order forms which would allow players to check all the cards they wanted, total the bill, and give them all the downloads. (More difficult, certainly, but perhaps more desirable would be some sort of software system that would compile the selected cards into multi-page documents so that there would be a single download, but I don't know whether there's anything capable of doing this in PDF format.)

Thoughts?

--M. J. Young

[daMoose_Neo]

Re: Playtests
Thats the best way to do it. Twilight's decks were first index cards, then prints in slips, exactly like that. I gave my testers a list of the cards for the set, let them construct deck lists based on that, and ran them off.

Tip: To make life REALLY easy during design, use Microsoft Access to create the cards in a database for easy management and the report function to create a card layout. My database got complex for Twilight, but I have it constructed so that I can generate a new database for a deck, select the cards from a drop down menu, and run a report based on that database formatted to the cards. Quite fun, very very handy ^_^

I'm not sure if players would take to the process for actual use though, and thats my concern. Even my playtesters baulked at the work behind doing a playtest deck. If I presented them with a deck it wasn't minded so much, and they still loved the game, but just something about them doing it themselves bothered them.

I think it'll be important with PDF card games to make a definate distinction between "Collectable" and "Customizable". MJ, your process, which would work quite well I'd imagine if you have the players, places it firmly within the Customizable.
Cavet on customs done as such...you'll likely need something of a market before it'll really work. MJ's got a built in one with Multiverser. Newbies or traditional CCG players may be leary of putting that much work into an unknown. Someone accustomed to Indie games, though, might better appreciate it.

Re: Card material
Acutally, there ARE better sources. Newts is one I've looked at, but found a couple better. I have the link on my old PC (moving into a new one at the moment) and will provide it once I've got it again.
The drawbacks to inkjet cards printed as such is you have to be careful in the design. You'll want minimal printing on them actually, as much white space as you can get away with, otherwise the cards are too saturated
and don't stand up as well (results of a few dozen experiments ^_^)

EDIT:
Re: Software-
Just noticed that bit and realized you could do it, alot easier than you might think.
Using my database process, create a secured web database and a script that reads these order forms. It can then generate the cards based on the form, build the form to print 9 to a "sheet" and make it printable, either as a web document or as a PDF (I know PHP has a PDF extension for making PDF's based on web input).

[Joe J Prince]

Hi, this is my first post on the forge, and I have to say it's an awesome sight. I can't wait to get my hands on MLWM!

This thread on CCGs/RPGs is of particular interest to me - many years ago I embarked on such a project: Shadow of The Prince of Darkness CCRPG

They way I had it working was for PCs to be built from a points buy system, so that stats and character features were not part of the collectable aspect. The reasoning behind this was basically to avoid limiting player choice - you could build whatever character you wanted regardless of what cards you owned.

The collectable/customizible aspect was for each player to have their own personal deck of game cards, basically a combat deck.
Character stats act a the pre-requisite resources to enable one to play a particular card. So no resource screws! The bane of CCGs.

Each combat card would also have a generic card value printed for use as a fortune check device, so decks could be skewed, but primarily the value would be a balancing device as more powerful cards would have a lower printed value. Similar to the L5R CCG mechanic of focus value.

However, the task of creating and balancing an entire card set has thus far proven too much for me :-( Richard Garfield is a mathematician dammit.

So I returned to the system and modified it so that each player just used a standard deck of playing cards. Just finishing this system has taken me long enough as I've only worked on it intermittently. But it's done now!
Well at a playtesting stage anyways.

Reading the rest of this thread has re-kindled my interest in the project as a hybrid, and as the rules currently stand it would be pretty simple to re-introduce the CCG element.

I would really appreciate some feedback on my game, I'll post more details in the indie-game design forum.

I'm afraid the game is  only available as a MS word document at the moment and its about 3 MB. But if you have MS word you can import your own pics onto the character sheets!

If anyone is interested in reading it remove the (nopythonrefs) and email me at

shadowofpod(nopythonrefs)@hotmail.com

Cheers all

Joe
Peas? Owt.