Hybridisation of the RPG and CCG model

[jknevitt]

As I see it, there has been very little discourse on the hybridisation of CCGs and RPGs. The CCG, the bastard cousin of the RPG, is a veritable treasure trove of innovation when it comes to concepts that could find use in an RPG format.

The one concept I would like to focus on briefly is more a meta-concept: that of collectibility. The use of a system of rarities to compartmentalise and define power levels is not a new concept in RPGs, although many RPGs instead place monetary values on things that could otherwise be classified by the ubiquitous Rare, Uncommon and Common.

What could be classified using the R/UC/C system? The primary use for the R/UC/C taxonomy could be for an acquirable internal commodity that is integral to the mechanics of a character. Therein lies the trick. Many Roleplaying games, unlike collectible card games, do not have optional, interchangeable modules that each player can choose to incorporate into their character.  Given such a modularity can be developed, vast new aspects of gaming could be tapped.

Thoughts?

[inky]

Many Roleplaying games, unlike collectible card games, do not have optional, interchangeable modules that each player can choose to incorporate into their character.  Given such a modularity can be developed, vast new aspects of gaming could be tapped.
Thoughts?

Actually, I think most RPGs do -- they're called "skills" or "feats" or "special abilities" or "spells". Wizards of the Coast is doing something like this with their RPGA games -- check out the campaign cards stuff linked off this page.

[Nathan P.]

My question would be is it possible to make a business model that would accomplish the "collectability" of CCG's applicable to RPG modules or whatever.

That is, what are you going to sell? 3 dollar PDF's with a random assortment of 9 common, 4 uncommon and 2 rare Spells, that only those with that PDF can use for their character?

The problem I see with that (which I'm not sure is what you're getting at, and please correct me if I'm wrong) is as soon as anyone in a group gets it, unless the social contract entails not "sharing" modules, everyone gets it. So its not like a group of friends that all play Magic, where you need the physical cards in order to play. You'd be trying to make information itself collectable, which I'm not sure is very possible.

However, if the game in question was designed in a very Step On Up fashion, with very strict guidelines about who can use the modules (maybe the GM gets his own, with different monsters or traps, stuff like that), then it would attract the players who would be into that kind of thing.

Here I'm just spinning out a stream of consciousness, so bear with me:

I envision a model where you include a copy of the resolution mechanics and setting with every module, or have it freely available, or somesuch. Perhaps to play each character has to buy a "Character Pack", which come with a ubuiqutous set of skills and powers and such, with some randomized "rares". Maybe theres a "wizard" pack, a "figher" pack, whatever. The GM buys a GM pack.

Every time you hit a certain goal (gain a level, hit a certain combination of stats, whatever) you become eliable to buy a "booster". Or you can trade in a certain amount of skills/powers to get a random one of the same rarity for a small fee (like 50 cents, or something). The GM has the same kind of restrictions as to when he can get boosters.

If you start a new game, you have the same distribution limits of a starter pack, but you can use any skills/powers that you've bought in the past.

So the designer is basically in the business of coming up with loads of cool stuff, and randomizing its distribution.

Again, all of this runs on a pretty strict "honor code" system, I would think, but it may attract a certain kind of player. Plus, it would enable pretty cool "tournements", I would imagine.

I don't know if any of that is anything like what you were looking for, but there's some thoughts.

[greedo1379]

This is an interesting thought but I'm not sure how you would implement it.

If you'll let me rephrase what I think you're saying: assume that an RPG character is analogous to a CCG deck and assume a character characteristic is analogous to a card.  The characteristics are assigned a rarity.

I think this is basically what is done now in a way.  Using a standard D&D example, you roll your 3D6 to generate base attributes.  This is just another rarity system.  Rather than opening a pack and saying "Wow, a 16 in Wisdom!" you roll three dice and then say, "Wow, a 16 in Wisdom!"  You could expand this randomization from only the base attributes to other characteristics like skills, feats, magic spells, and so on.

One interesting thing I've seen is role playing mages using actual Magic decks.  Back a couple years ago they used to have these big cards that were like characters.  They would alter your basic game.  So if I played as Merlin the Great Mage or whatever my hand size would be 9 rather than the standard 7.  But my life total would start at 18 rather than 20.  Or whatever.  Anyway, what these guys did was develop a system for making the "big cards" so you could make your own character.  Then they would do standard adventure stuff.

I think the biggest problem is just that a lot of folks look at CCGs as "the bastard cousin of the RPG".  I don't know if you're familiar with it but you could also check out the Legends of the Five Rings CCG.  I haven't played since they moved the timeline up 40 years but games used to be ready made stories.  You would have your clan and enlist different characters with their own intricate backgrounds.  Some of them were actually spies and some of them were slowly corrupting your clan.  And so on.  In this case your "character" was really the clan.  You were just directing your subordinates.

[greedo1379]

My question would be is it possible to make a business model that would accomplish the "collectability" of CCG's applicable to RPG modules or whatever.

...

I don't know if any of that is anything like what you were looking for, but there's some thoughts.

That's a really cool idea!  Would it really be possible for an "Indie" to do?  I mean the logistics and manufacturing of it boggle my mind.

It does sound like a super idea though...  I imagine a player buying a great big pile of packs which forces the DM to buy a great big pile of packs to continue to challenge him which forces the other players to buy more packs to compete...  

However, would the player actually be attached to his character at all?  Or would it just be a collection of cards?  Especially since the player can just make a new character using the same cards again.

I think as a sealed deck tournement type game it would be awesome.  I can imagine this being a lot of fun.

[Nathan P.]

Yah, you can see in my post that I got way excited about it as I started thinking about it.

I don't think the logistics would be really that hard, except for the randomization part - but I feel like you could put each chunk into a seperate file and have a smart computer person write a little program that would randomize them and put them into folders, which you then just sell in a random order.

Again working off of the (Magic) CCG model...

You start with your "base set" of, say 100 common player chunks, 75 uncommon and 50 rare.  Come up with some base character packs. Start off with those, and come up with an "expansion" about once every year or year and half, each one with say 75 new common chunks, 50 uncommon and 25 rare. Or maybe just uncommons and rares. Every fourth expansion is new setting - desert-themed, or underground, or whatever. Cycle through like that.

Come up with some rules-enforced limits, like "If you're playing a desert game you can only use these expansions".

I actually don't envision that it would have to be cards at all. Basically, a player would have a binder that he could put all his expansions in to make his own personal "players handbook". Say its all through PDFs...you just print out the two or three sheets of paper that holds all the chunks from each booster you buy, punch holes in em and put em in the binder.

And, actually, I think that people would grow more attached to characters, because it would be such a process to build them. Like, if you've been playing through two or three expansions, then you're character is going to have different options than your buddy who just joined the game and only has one expansions worth of chunks.

And yes, "sealed" tournaments would be hella cool.

Maybe, if your character dies, all the chunks you used in him become inaccessable to you unless you get them again in new packs. That would not only encourage gamist play (survive!), but also drive sales and, I think, make each character unique. I dunno if the GM would have similar restrictions.

Man. This has gotten me fired up - I guess it's way more exciting than the homework I should be doing.

[greedo1379]

Yah, you can see in my post that I got way excited about it as I started thinking about it.

I don't think the logistics would be really that hard, except for the randomization part - but I feel like you could put each chunk into a seperate file and have a smart computer person write a little program that would randomize them and put them into folders, which you then just sell in a random order.

You could just assign each a number and then randomly generate a couple numbers and build "packs" by hand.

Again working off of the (Magic) CCG model...

You start with your "base set" of, say 100 common player chunks, 75 uncommon and 50 rare.  Come up with some base character packs. Start off with those, and come up with an "expansion" about once every year or year and half, each one with say 75 new common chunks, 50 uncommon and 25 rare. Or maybe just uncommons and rares. Every fourth expansion is new setting - desert-themed, or underground, or whatever. Cycle through like that.

Come up with some rules-enforced limits, like "If you're playing a desert game you can only use these expansions".

I like this.  I think you could do some great stuff with "Race Ca... Species Cards" and such.  Have the "Jinn" race for your desert expansion or whatever.  Yeah, I think that's pretty solid.

I actually don't envision that it would have to be cards at all. Basically, a player would have a binder that he could put all his expansions in to make his own personal "players handbook". Say its all through PDFs...you just print out the two or three sheets of paper that holds all the chunks from each booster you buy, punch holes in em and put em in the binder.

Through PDFs would be about the only way I could see to do it.  I mean unless you sat down and did the whole card printing thing but thats when you have the logistics and such.  Of course, when its in PDFs you will have copying, etc.

You could perhaps have the PDF sheet be serial numbered.  There has to be some way for a PDF "print on demand" to apply a serial number to a document.

And, actually, I think that people would grow more attached to characters, because it would be such a process to build them. Like, if you've been playing through two or three expansions, then you're character is going to have different options than your buddy who just joined the game and only has one expansions worth of chunks.

Then you'll have to get rid of the idea that cards can be reused.  Otherwise wouldn't I want my guy to get killed sometimes to take advantage of the new cards?  (Basically like taking a deck apart and starting all over rather than more refining)

Maybe, if your character dies, all the chunks you used in him become inaccessable to you unless you get them again in new packs. That would not only encourage gamist play (survive!), but also drive sales and, I think, make each character unique. I dunno if the GM would have similar restrictions.

You would have to do something like this.  Of course, how could this be controlled?  

You could do a level thing...  Here, how about this:

Assume your "character deck" has 60 cards.  At first level you are able to use 5 Rares, 15 Uncommons, and 40 commons.  At second level it goes to 6:16:38.
3rd : 7:17:36
4th : 8:18:34
etc.

This would get the player to keep buying packs to get that good rare for the next time he levels up.

Also, when your character dies, you start again at 1st level so while you are free to use your previous cards you can't use all of them.

Jeez, that would be a cool idea for a Magic tournement on its own.

[Shadetree]

Instead of PDF's why not just a website with a database of each user.  For X amount extra cards will be added to that user account.  The website would be able to generate character sheets with a serial number that tournament runners could pop into the website to confirm the validity of the character.  Then all the designer(s) have to do is enter new cards into a database instead of laying out a PDF or printing cards.  The same goes for Sealed deck Tournies.  Just pay X and create a character from only the cards you bought for the sealed deck.

[Matt Snyder]

Guys, I can't wrap my brain around how anyone would become motivated toward demand of randomized digital product. Digital product is by its very nature perfectly "clonable." So, once you've got your hands on one version, BANG! Everyone else can pretty easily. There goes rarity out the door.

Similarly, content suffers similar problems. Content is, essentially, "ideas." Once an idea is revealed, how can we prevent

I think the problem is that there must be a physical object to actually merit a scarcity and supply control system.

My suggestion? Easy! Dice. Make the dice collectible for a game. They are physical objects, not easily reproduced. Scarcity would work for those. There was Dragon Dice years back, but it was purely a strategy game if I recall. Maybe that model could be a lot of fun for an RPG as well.

Similarly, miniatures would work. Of course, they are exorbitantly expensive and WotC is already doing it.

[jknevitt]

Wow, a lot of great ideas. Greedo hit the nail on the head by making the character=deck, characteristic=card analogy.

Here's the one idea I had:

Frex, a GM buys the Wicked Kewl RPG. Inside the WKRPG, there are a number of collectible characteristics (be they on perforated card sheets or whatever). Players are also encouraged to go out and buy a copy of the WKRPG or a "character booster", since their copy or the booster might have different characteristics. These would have different rarities. If you own certain characteristics, you can use them for character creation and advancement in play, and can paperclip them to your character or whatever.

The issue of duplicability could be solved through a number of means. Paper/card types, watermarking, serialization, etc etc. These would all increase the printing cost.

Imagine if Wizards had've done this with Feats for D&D3e.

[ethan_greer]

For your consideration:

Dragon Storm is a collectible card RPG.

[daMoose_Neo]

I'm (to my knowledge) the resident Card Game Publisher, and my approach was to borrow more from RPGs than CCGs. And I do consider Twilight a hybred of the two, not to a major degree, but there are mass borrowings from both sides of the fence.

I love the card game format- its portable, easy to work with, all the information you need is RIGHT THERE.
What I publish myself is a CUSTOMIZABLE Card game, not neccesarily a COLLECTABLE, exactly for the reason of Magic.
What we have there is a degeneration of play, in my opinion. Too many of these new sets are rehashed, there is no skill involved in playing. Cards are reprinted, renamed, and a vicious cycle exists that to be good you have to spend more money, not simply play well.
Challenges exist in the "Pro Tour" level with the Draft programs, but among your store players all a person has to do is spend the most money. Doesn't matter they know jackshit about the game. According to my understanding anymore, someone drops a card called "Platinum Angel" and you may as well fold.

On the flip side, Final Twilight (See signiture) is a customizable game. Three preconstructed decks are currently available, a booster/Modular set is due out in January. The Modular Packs represent a change from traditional Collectable Card Game development- each of these presorted packs of 12 cards is specially geared toward one of the three Decks in print, and even then there will be several packs for each deck, meant to modify it to better perform one task or another. Want to do a little of it all? Buy all the packs. A full set for one Twilight character will run you less than $20. Each Mod Pack contains a full play set (4 copies) of each of its cards. Its 3 different cards per pack, but you don't have to hunt or spend $100's to get what you need/want.
The thing about Twilight is the game relies on purely Stratagy. One of the most "broken" cards according to CCG vets has actually had almost nothing to do with victories, while one of the most critisized has been the most helpful. Also too, the last tournament I held, the second place winner walked in a bought a deck, competed against folks who have been playing since it came out this summer, and won.

Collectable games are purely a captialistic adventure, a way to suck as much money out of a consumer as possible. If you have to buy 20 packs to get 1 Card (or what not), I, as a player, feel royally gyped. And I highly, highly doubt players will want to spend money to, what amounts to in Role Playing, rerolling the die.
Besides, CCG Printing is EXPENSIVE. My first run cost me $3600 for the printing, about $2000 for art. The market is also a vastly different creature than RPGs.
I think RPGs have more to offer CCGs than CCGs have to offer RPGs.

[Simon Kamber]

What would really distinguish such a game from any other CCG? Except that "deck" is substituted for "character" and "card" for "ability", what exactly makes up the "roleplaying game" aspect of the game?

[greedo1379]

Guys, I can't wrap my brain around how anyone would become motivated toward demand of randomized digital product. Digital product is by its very nature perfectly "clonable." So, once you've got your hands on one version, BANG! Everyone else can pretty easily. There goes rarity out the door.

Magic Online has you buy packs of digital cards.

[greedo1379]

Instead of PDF's why not just a website with a database of each user.  For X amount extra cards will be added to that user account.  The website would be able to generate character sheets with a serial number that tournament runners could pop into the website to confirm the validity of the character.  Then all the designer(s) have to do is enter new cards into a database instead of laying out a PDF or printing cards.  The same goes for Sealed deck Tournies.  Just pay X and create a character from only the cards you bought for the sealed deck.

I thought about suggesting something like this.  But I thought there might be problems with folks giving their name and such.  I don't know what I was thinking.  This is a cool idea.