Vietnam Campaign setting suggestions

[Dauntless]

I was in a nostalgic mood and decided to look at my old Phoenix Command system and I was immediately reminded of my days using this system for my Vietnam War campaigns.  I was actually pretty young when we played the campaigns (about 14-15 back in '86) but I probably knew more about the Vietnam conflict then than I do now.

Some of my most memorable experiences as a GM were done in this setting, and I was thinking of making a setting for it again.  I ran 3 seperate campaigns with the characters being in 3 seperate military units (173rd Airborne Brigade, 3rd Battalion 3rd Marine, and the 25th Infantry Div). I also ran some mini-sessions with characters as part of the MACV-SOG or Military Assistance Command Vietnam- Studies and Observation Group, which were ad hoc multi branch spec ops teams, some LRRP stuff, and even a Magnum P.I. -esque NIA working with a SEAL team.

After playing the computer game Vietcong, a lot of players on the forums wanted to see units other than the Green Berets.  Personally, I think the SEALS are little overused, though it would be interesting to do some UDT missions (since they still existed in the Vietnam era and hadn't been merged into the SEAL teams totally yet).  And of course, the Spec Ops stuff is interesting, but I think it would deserve its own book.  I also think showcasing some of the other nationalities would be really cool...like the Aussies, the Kiwis, or the ROK's.

Or how about letting the book run the gamut from WWII on up to the fight with the Chinese after the US left?  I'm not sure how many players would want to play Vietnamese fighting the Japanese (or French), or a French Foreign Legionnaire at the doomed Dien Bien Phu, but at least it would be different.

How much information about stateside politics should be given?  I always wanted to roleplay out a situation where a soldier got lucky and got some R&R time in Hawaii, but whole units don't get R&R at the same time, it I never like splitting up players for long periods of time.  I think the player having to deal with the turbulent social climate of the time very interesting.  How would you handle something like this?

Any other ideas or comments?  BTW, the home system I'm going to use is probably even more crunchy than Phoenix Command (though without the need for looking up so many tables).  But it's definitely in the hard simulationist camp.  But it also simulates the psychology of the character both in and out of combat (for example, a character's mental state is a huge factor in determining his combat worthiness).  I haven't worked out all my morale rules, so advice on stuff like punji pits, booby traps, and psychological warfare would be welcome.

Slightly OT, but how interesting would a Korean War setting be?

[komradebob]

I'm not sure how many players would want to play Vietnamese fighting the Japanese (or French), or a French Foreign Legionnaire at the doomed Dien Bien Phu, but at least it would be different.

Playing VC might be an extremely interesting option. On a strictly gamist basis, playing Viet Cong/ Viet Minh/ Liberation Army irregulars would represent an enormous challenge.

On a related note, I remember an old issue of the short lived Marvel comic The 'Nam that centered on the story of a Kit Carson scout that had served on both/multiple sides. you can probably find those in comic shop bargain bins for 0.25$ or so.  I also seem to recall that a number of the FFL troops serving in Viet Nam were WW2 veterans whose service and/or politics left them in a very unpleasant position in post-war european society ( German vets, collaborationists, etc.). It would certainly make for a lot of interesting moral ambiguity...

[Erick Wujcik]

I always wanted to roleplay out a situation where a soldier got lucky and got some R&R time in Hawaii, but whole units don't get R&R at the same time, it I never like splitting up players for long periods of time.  I think the player having to deal with the turbulent social climate of the time very interesting.  How would you handle something like this?

It's true that typically whole units didn't get simultaneous R&R... but it did happen, especially when units were either totally chewed up, or seen as needing a major reward. And given that it's a role-playing game, it makes perfect sense.

Any other ideas or comments?  BTW, the home system I'm going to use is probably even more crunchy than Phoenix Command (though without the need for looking up so many tables).  But it's definitely in the hard simulationist camp.  But it also simulates the psychology of the character both in and out of combat (for example, a character's mental state is a huge factor in determining his combat worthiness).  I haven't worked out all my morale rules, so advice on stuff like punji pits, booby traps, and psychological warfare would be welcome.

I'm a bit biased, being the designer and all, but I think it's worth taking a look at RECON, a role-playing game developed specifically for Vietnam War RPGing:

Deluxe RECON order webpage

You can also find a fair amount of discussion over on the Palladium/Recon BBS, along with some very interesting links, on Vietnam, Vietnam RPGing, and RECON stuff:

RECON Board

or

Palladium Boards - Look for RECON

Erick

[Dauntless]

Thanks for the comments

Actually, the whole post WWII era was pretty intriguing.  British action in Malaysia and the Suez, France in Indochina and the Suez, Holland in Indonesia...basically all the old world powers realizing that post-WWII had changed into a New World Order.  But I think for the most part the old world powers learned the hard way that the colonial system just wasn't going to cut it anymore.  I therefore find it ironic that America put pressure on many of those old world powers to stop their old Imperial ways (for example, by telling England, France and Israel to get out of the Suez) and yet they basically willfully got themselves into the mess that France got into in Vietnam.

I really think that you can't do this period justice without having some of the political chaos and moral ambiguity of the whole mess as a very important part of the game.

BTW, I have that comic with the Kit Carson scout and it was an interesting read.  I never should have bought that Magnum P.I. DVD series, that's what's making me so nostalgic now.....

[Dauntless]

Hey Erick,

I still have Palladium's Recon around somewhere as well as the first mission supplement.  Hell, I even used to have the original Recon game (non-Palladium) and one of the supplements Haiphong Harbor....but those got lost ages ago.  I'll check out those links you gave me for some ideas.

One of my exGF's is Vietnamese, and both her dad and one of her Uncles were trained at the military academy in Hue.  Her dad was in the South Vietnamese Marines, and her uncle was in the Air Force.  I know her dad still has a lot of memories of that time, and he has reams of stuff in Vietnamese from the Vietnamese perspective.  I am somewhat loathe to ask him about stuff like this, since even though he doesn't seem too reticent  talking about what happened, just the thought that I could be bringing up painful memories just doesn't seem right.

[M. J. Young]

Somewhere there are some threads on designing a game in which coherence was to be obtained by creating situations in which gamist, simulationist, and narrativist choices would tend to coincide and be mutually supportive. I mention it because it seemed that the ideal situation for that was small combat units in southeast Asia, and that was the intended setting/situation that was going to make it work. I can't recall at the moment the word we were using for that convergence of agenda (was it convergence?), but it might be useful to hunt for it. It would have been in either GNS or Theory.

--M. J. Young