[Ronnies] The winners for September

[sirogit]

I resent my game being called a satire.

[tygertyger]

   Major coolness!  While I certainly hoped to be named a winner, I knew better than to take it for granted.  I look forward to getting feedback on what I did right and what I could've done better.  Thanks for the opportunity, Ron.  And thanks to all of the other entrants for the competition -- I enjoy being kept at the top of my game!

[Paul Czege]

Hello,

While I certainly hoped to be named a winner, I knew better than to take it for granted.  I look forward to getting feedback on what I did right and what I could've done better.

I'm not connecting your username with any of the entries. Which one was yours?

Paul

[rrr]

Unbaked but tasty so far...

Hell yeah, I'm happy with that as a result for my first game ever to be finished, let alone get near completion!

I was kind of aware towards the end that I probably wasn't going to win any prizes for it, but my main motive was actually two-fold.

I'm looking forward to the feedback.  I have some feelings looking back over the game as to why it doesn't quite work, but it's going to be fascinating to get Ron's thoughts, however brief.

Secondly, I'm just glad to have actually finished it.  I feel like I learnt a lot even in that one day.

On a weird note of synchronicity, I've just noticed both mine and Graham Walmsley's games make use of the heroic journey structure proposed by Campbell.  More interestingly both use the structure as outlined by Christopher Vogler in "The Writer's Journey"

That's rather weird.  Now that the contest is over, I started looking through some of the winners and runners up and Graham's one (Get Out Get Away Get Wise Get Back Get Even) struck me as having a cool title, so I downloaded that one first.  I was rather shocked to see the same idea I had. 

Any others in this batch use the same structure?  Maybe there's something in the air at the moment to do with Vogler's book...!

I have to say Graham's treatment of the Heroic Journey looks far more well thought out and better structured than mine..!  I knew at the time I was rushing that aspect, and besides my brain doesn't work too well at 3am...!  (the last few pages of mine seem really rushed and kind of content-less now that I look at them whilst I'm fully awake)

Anyone else use this idea, or is it just Graham and me..?

strange coincidence....

This thread is probably not the place to discuss that however.  I may post another thread about story structure in RPGs if I can formulate my thoughts enough.  Graham... I'd certainly be interested in what you thought about when choosing this idea. 

Drew

[J. Tuomas Harviainen]

Any others in this batch use the same structure?

An exceptional number of Forge-connected or Forge-inspired games follow Campbellian principles, even those that do not use the Hero's Journey as their basis. But that's something best discussed on another forum, regardless of how many in this batch had such leanings (which is a _very_ fine question in itself, I think.)

So how many of you guys did /intentionally/ follow Campbell's concepts? And how many now see them in effect in their own work despite not following them by intent? I'm really curious, as theory in "adjacent" fields to rpg design hints that most beginning artists subconsciously fall towards known pattern templates.

-Jiituomas

[tygertyger]

I'm not connecting your username with any of the entries. Which one was yours?

I just signed up, actually (easier to participate in forum discussions that way).  I would be the author of Alien Angels.

[Arturo G.]

J. Tuomas Harviainen:

An exceptional number of Forge-connected or Forge-inspired games follow Campbellian principles, even those that do not use the Hero's Journey as their basis. But that's something best discussed on another forum, regardless of how many in this batch had such leanings (which is a _very_ fine question in itself, I think.)

Campbellian principles? Hero's Journey?
I think I'm new to this. Please, some links.

Cheers,
Arturo

[J. Tuomas Harviainen]

Campbellian principles? Hero's Journey? I think I'm new to this. Please, some links.

No links, says the librarian.

This refers to one of the basic myth theories. Very roughly: In his book The Hero with a Thousand Faces (1949) Joseph Campbell (1904-1987) posited that all mythic stories can be reduced to a few common basic stories, which are just superficially different due to cultural reasons. The waypoints and core turns are always the same.

The most important (to Campbell, at least) of these is the Hero's Journey, in which (I'm drawing these from memory and may thus be slightly inaccurate)) a protagonist is called to adventure, first hesitates, gets help, crosses a significant threshold (meaning things have now permanently changed and there is no way to return to what was), travels through events and small trials, faces a very hard trial requiring personal strength and sacrifice, triumphs, returns home as a new person.

The two basic templates of this we see in popular culture are the physical variant (think fighting hero on a path of revenge who meets interesting people on the way, is captured by the enemy, manages to free himself, kills the bad guy, returns home with the babe) and the social variant (small-town boy comes to town, becomes a star, turns cocky, falls, recovers towards a comeback but as a now wiser person.)

A Campbellian-principle game is an rpg designed to produce variants of just one basic (type of) story. My Life with the Master and Polaris are good examples of such design. If you look at the Ronnie entries, there are a lot more. In contrast, many "mainstream" games try to avoid this idea, resulting in general setting -based games (think Vampire or Rolemaster) that define stories in separate products for the purposes of that particular product. They're more marketable that way. Those games are general purpose sedans with all sorts of accessories you can buy, Campbellian games are F1 racers that go faster than anything while on the track but aren't very good outside it. Both have their uses.

-Jiituomas

(PS: The Hero with... is a smooth read and contains loads of interesting myths that he uses as examples. I highly recommend actually reading it.)

[Arturo G.]

Thanks, Jiituomas!

I think I already read an essay about that long time ago. Anyway, I have talked with my bookstore and I have ordered the book in my native language for quicker reading.

A Campbellian-principle game is an rpg designed to produce variants of just one basic (type of) story. My Life with the Master and Polaris are good examples of such design. If you look at the Ronnie entries, there are a lot more. In contrast, many "mainstream" games try to avoid this idea, resulting in general setting -based games (think Vampire or Rolemaster) that define stories in separate products for the purposes of that particular product. They're more marketable that way. Those games are general purpose sedans with all sorts of accessories you can buy, Campbellian games are F1 racers that go faster than anything while on the track but aren't very good outside it. Both have their uses.

I'm thinking that it is mush easier to write a functional game following Campbellian-principles. In fact I think that answering the famous three questions (What is you game about? What do the character? What do the players?) is much easier in a highly focused game. Also deriving mechanics that produce the desired effect. And as you say this games are easier to pick-up and play.

Perhaps there is a bias in The Forge to design Campbellian-priciple-games, at least as you are a beginner-designer.
If this is true, it is not strange that the Ronnies, or any 24hours design-contest is full of this type of games.

However, I think we are going off-topic in this thread. If someone really want to discuss this, I will also suggest to open another thread.

Cheers,
Arturo

[Ron Edwards]

My thoughts exactly.

Now that the feedback threads have begun in Indie Design, this thread should now be considered closed.

Best,
Ron