World of Condemn Campaign Setting help needed

[inchoates]

Hi all,
Since this is my first post here, a little information about myself seems to be in order. I am, first and foremost, a creator(artist?)...like everyone else here. I have been writing, designing, creating, sketching, painting and scrapping roleplaying related ideas since shortly after my induction into this realm in the late seventies. Long story short, I have been working on my latest creation for the last  few years and, to be blunt, I need help. I am looking to create...how do I put this...a cross-generational product that is a traditional roleplaying publication at is core...but supplemented with multimedia and 'cast' products. What does this mean? I want to create a city-based  setting (to begin with) with incredibly detailed maps, characters, politics, economy, history and geography. This setting is tentatively called 'Gothic Swashbuckling', but I think this may be a little 'trite' for what I am proposing. It is essentially a pseudo-Victorian/Renaissance flavor fantasy/horror setting. My initial inspiration for this project is based upon trying to combine White Wolf's Victorian Age Vampire with AEG's Swashbuckling Adventures. I was interested in presenting a fantasy/horror campaign based around the port city of Praxis. The following excerpts are taken from the first publication in the 'World of Condemn Campaign Setting' called 'Praxis of Condemn'...which can be found at http://www.smallhours.com, which is a very dated web site I started...which incidentally will change to another site and publishing name to seperate it from my graphic design endeavors...

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-"Praxis of Condemn™ is a supplement detailing nearly every aspect of daily life in the capitol city of the fictional country of Auretaine, which gets its inspiration from historic France of the 17th century and Victorian Era London to name a few. This sourcebook is full of everything a game master needs to present this setting in minute detail. It contains all the maps, lists, flowcharts, rules and character information you need to deliver a complex and engaging campaign."

-"These titles will intricately detail the city of Condemn and the surrounding lands of this dark and sinister locale. Praxis of Condemn™ is the first release detailing Codemn, the capitol city of the Cartisse™ province in the fictional country of Auretaine™. Everything from street and sewer maps to biographies of all the major characters that play important roles in the city will be minutely detailed. All the trappings and information necessary to ensure that you can fully immerse your players in a world of intrigue and terror are provided in this first installment for the World of Condemn™. The supplements that follow will focus on specifc areas already mentioned in the Praxis of Condemn™ sourcebook providing additional information for game masters and players."

-"Condemn. The capitol of Auretaine located in the province of Cartisse. A burgeoning city that has sprawled outside the confines of its own ancient, crumbling walls. A city split by the River Remiss that flows west into the Bay of Condemn. A perpetual fog seems to hang over the city most days until the late afternoon sun burns it off or the winds blow down from the ominous Couvée Mountains in the east. The buildings and structures of the city are crowded onto the slopes and into the crevices of the rolling valley that cradles it. This, in addition to the architecture, seems to give this city the illusion that it is towering over its inhabitants like a predator waiting to pounce on its prey. The Church Bell Tower and the Clock Tower seem to defy this conception by rising proudly from the canopy of buildings that surround them, the sounds of their bells echoing through the streets like a fiery sermon or the clarion calls of cavalry reminiscent of times long forgotten.
In the center of the wide and slow moving River Remiss are two islands that the locals call, 'The Sisters', officially known as 'The Reichyards'(due to their heritage as strongholds from a time when the Reichrègle ruled this region)or, more recently, 'Iles de Doulour'...the 'Islands of Pain'. Atop the western island rises a tall and imposing citadel that now houses the Reichyard Prison. Over centuries of use, the prison has expanded by carving into the rock of the island and some rumors suggest that the island is hollow, the lowest levels reaching beneath the river, but none know this for sure as anyone taken into its depths is never seen again. The eastern island boasts an expansive structure that consumes the entire summit of the hill, holding the Reichyard Asylum commanding a view of the large, open field below it where the Hospital is located and the warden his residence and office.
Rising imposingly near the mouth of the river is the 'Obelus', a sheer basalt plateau rising hundreds of feet above the Bay of Condemn. Mists cling perpetually to the forked height preserving rumors of a ruined monastery atop it. Church decree and city ordinance forbid any trespass on the island under penalty of imprisonment. Many local legends about the formation abound, but most agree that it has a dark and sinister history that is better left hidden in the mists and concealed in the depths of the Church archives.
This is a city ensnared in the grip of an inquisition movement that is sweeping through the provinces like a plague. The resurgence of the Absolution movement by the Church seeks to eradicate all forms of heresy, which some say is an attempt to return the church to its former greatness by wresting control of the government from the King and Council and instituting a new theocracy. Many nobles of the region oppose the Church at every turn, for they risk losing much, but in the process many have branded themselves infidels and targets of the Inquisitors. The Cardinal denounces all of these accusations and preaches that heretics are seeking to bring down the Church amid false conspiracies. This is a time when the internal power struggles and scheming magistrates are tearing apart the council and rumors run rampant of plots against King and country.
It is a time when...medicine and firearms are in their infancy...pirates and privateers ravage the trade lanes on the high seas...the Guild strives to control the streets and harbor under the noses of the council and city watch...diseases abound and madness and dementia are taking a firm hold on the populace...local legends are clawing their way out of the grave of obscurity as whispers in the dark streets begin to surface about 'The Burlap Butcher', 'The Hangman of Howe Street', 'The Cutpurse of Cartisse', 'Madam Suture', 'The Rotting Piper' and others...
Yet it is also a time of great advances in technology and the arts...theater and opera...painting and sculpture...and inventors and scientists are discovering the secrets of technology and industry. Great minds are exploring creativity with inspiration and invention while the nobles host decadent balls and plot with courtiers in an endless game of propriety and pomp.
Prepare to immerse yourself in a time when quick wit and a sharp tongue can do as much, or more, than a pistol and rapier...when skills and knowledge are more valuable than gold or gunpowder.
Prepare to immerse yourself in a city that is a haven for heretics and fanatics alike...a breeding ground for conspiracy and larceny...where the praxis of dark sorceries are veiled under the guise of absolution or hidden in the shadows of the Obelus.
Wise are those who tread lightly and keep their misinformed musings to themselves...for even the rats here keep their noses out of the sewers..."
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So...anyone interest in seeing or hearing more...and more importantly...working on this with me in a partnership capacity?

Here is what I am looking to do:

-Create professional quality illustrations and maps for the printed publications
-Make those maps interactive in digital media form (Flash?)
-Create profesional 3D renderings of the city
-Look into creating resin cast products that are themed with the material
-Investigate ways of publishing/selling/distrubting material
-Revisit product roadmap and branding(?)
-Update/upgrade product web site


Comments, suggestions, feedback?
I have a ton of material for review if anyone is serious about co-creating...

[Anders Larsen]

Hi and welcome to The Forge!

It seems like you are very serious about this, and have some strong ideas. But this 'highly detailed' approach you have concern me a little, because you risk losing focus of what really is important in the setting. Why do you feel it is necessary to have all these details? Is this really important to get an interesting game?

Prepare to immerse yourself in a time when quick wit and a sharp tongue can do as much, or more, than a pistol and rapier...when skills and knowledge are more valuable than gold or gunpowder.
Prepare to immerse yourself in a city that is a haven for heretics and fanatics alike...a breeding ground for conspiracy and larceny...where the praxis of dark sorceries are veiled under the guise of absolution or hidden in the shadows of the Obelus.

This seems to be the central concepts of the game (together with the inquisition movement), so this is really where the focus should be. Stuff like maps, economy and geography is really not important for a game of conspiracy, inquisition, 'quick wit and a sharp tongue' etc.

If you can bring these concepts to the foreground, it can very well become an interesting game.

- Anders

[inchoates]

Alas...you are correct. The focus of the game will be those things...but my intent is to provide as complete a vision as possible to as to free the gamemaster from having to design the world or think it up on the fly. I could just drop all of the extra details and focus on the story, but I really want to create something that, to my knowledge, has not really been done. I guess that is why I put out this call for help so I can actually get somewhere on this. Thanks for your input...it is appreciated as I do tend to lose focus at times...so I will revist what I am trying to do. Maybe I just need to restructure. Design the core concepts and add to it with all the other details I have planned...

[Anders Larsen]

Ok, What I say is only my opinion from what I could read from your post, so you should not react too drastic on it. I wouldn't want you to rewrite everything or drop all your cool ideas.

So to clarify: It is not that I think you should completely drop things like map or description of economy, you should just be careful that you don't use too much time on it - especially in the beginning of the design process.

What you should do is ask yourself: "What do I think is really cool about this setting?", "What feeling do I want in the setting?", "What will the character typically do in this game; what is the typical story told?" etc., to get to what you really want for this game. After that you can try to find ways to  give these concepts a strong presence in the setting. And when you feel you have something that really give the gaming experience you want, then you can add all the details.

- Anders

[David Berg]

my intent is to provide as complete a vision as possible to as to free the gamemaster from having to design the world or think it up on the fly.

Hey, as long as you can do whatever else you need to do, that sounds like a totally worthy goal to me.  Providing a complete vision down to a fine level of detail not only saves the GM work, it helps safeguard your world against GM butchery. 

As a GM, I like to make a lot of stuff up as I go, but if I were ever handed a perfectly detailed world, I'd probably run it unaltered just to enjoy exploring it the same way the players do.

If you really care enough about the details to do work on them, and you feel that work enhances your game, I say go for it.

I am working on a similar project, in which I've tried to start with real-world physics and then tweak them just a little bit for my geography.  Real-world economic and social tendencies are also being followed to the best of my ability, again with slight twists.  There is a huge downside to working this way, but I think the upside has been worth it thus far.

Downside 1: I often come up with cool ideas that I have to abandon because they don't make sense within the logical constraints of the world (mostly, they'd change the world in ways I don't want)

Downside 2: as I simply don't know everything relevant about the way real thermodynamics and human history has worked, I spend a lot of time investigating, which is not really my favorite pastime (fortunately, I have a co-designer who is into that)

Downside 3: the "approval" process for new ideas is slow, so the development of the game itself is slow (on and off for about 3.5 years now)

Upside: I'm immensely satisfied with all of the material that passes all the tests and makes it into "canon"

[David Berg]

Inchoates,

My own comments should not be taken as a refutation of Anders' -- I agree with just about everything he has said.  It seems to me that a major question is where you are at in the design process.  I think I am assuming that you are further along in developing the central point and focus of your game than Anders is assuming.

[stefoid]

Hi.

warning - gross generalization follows:

In forge-speak, what you are presenting is called a 'canonical setting'.  I wouldnt say its frowned apon here exactly, but viewed more as something that a might distract you from what the focus of your game is supposed to be.  Or even as a replacement for having a specific focus at all, like you just wanna create this cool world for players to explore and have fun with.

Forgerites tend to want the setting to be about the situation that players will find themselves in, rather than the details of this is town X and it has such and such a population and you can buy a horse here for 32 bucks.  'situation' is like the bit about rapiers and wits that was highlighted in a previous post.

To put it another way, a canonical setting is filled with facts or data.  Embedded somewhere in there will be stuff that can drive a game - plot hooks or whatever you want to call them.  Active stuff.  The fact that a horse costs 32 bucks inst going to drive a character or a game unless the character is a horse trader I suppose.  Its passive data taking up space and hiding the juciy stuff.  Same with a settings 'history'.  Sort out what historical stuff you are presenting is dead data and what is going to actively drive the game in its 'present'.

[David Berg]

Stefoid-

Good points.  However, in my experience, the fantasy game-creation experience is a very long, multi-part process, and churning out data can be a very valuable step.  Some creators get inspired by thinking first of game situations, and then filling in necessary surrounding details; but others do it in the opposite order.  I for one get excited in the process of creating a detailed setting, and this then inspires me to conceive and work on game situations.  I'm certainly not saving myself any time and effort, but as long as I enjoy the process, I don't think I'm wasting any either.  :)

I am relatively new to the Forge, so if I'm missing out on some element of this dynamic that's already been discussed ad nauseum, feel free to educate me.  (In this thread if it relates to Condemn; otherwise, PM me.)

-Dave

[stefoid]

I agree.   If you are doing a game based on an existing setting, you can zero in on the situation pretty much to the exclusion of all else, because the boring details of the setting are already in your players minds.  the power of cliches!

If you want to come up with something new, then of course you have to give details to the players.  But you can filter those details as much as possible to give the flavour but without the deadwood.  Basically the setting becomes the situation

[zilla151]

inchoates are you still active on this board?