Me, My RPG and the dreaded "E" word.

[Wrageowrapper]

Hello Forge, first post here yet I have been a filthy lurker for a while now.
The game I am currently working on is called "Welcome to Yus Space", its part tactical shooter, part Worms Armageddon, part DnD, part really bad humour. Its science fiction/fantasy with systems for politics, police investigation, business simulator and with all the standard blowing shit up thrown in for good measure.
Anyways, I have been working on this RPG for quite some time and consider it to be my Magnum Opus, that is its kind of huge. That is on last count there are other 400 skills and around 200 spells all divided amongst 10 races, 10 classes and 40 sub-classes. I also believe that it may be a little too complicated, especially the combat system. Its just that when I get an idea I have to incorporate it somehow to the point where its become more like a life simulator than an action RPG which is what I started out with. I understand how it all works, which is fine, but I imagine anyone else trying to play the game might have problems.

So my question is, do people edit, or when you hear the word edit to you cower in the shower, sobbing to yourself quietly while eating ice cream. I really don't want to edit anything as it all works in its own special kind of way. But I suspect I may have to. I guess the important thing is that it is still fun.

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

I'm not a particularly experienced Game Designer, but I know from Art and other disciplines that I don't really feel there is quality without editing.

I think it's when we're forced to give up the notions and ideas we first held about the way to solve a problem that we can truly innovate, and I think any project can benefit by first boiling things down to their essential essences. That being said, Hero System is very complicated and people still learn that behemoth and recite it line and verse, if you're game is elegant and strong, some people will play it, but don't expect mass appeal. Plus your game would have to be pretty incredibly consistent and thorough if you're going to go that road, and that's hard with so many rules. Ultimately you don't have to lose the complexity, but I think your game will only suffer if you don't edit anything out.

[Alan]

Hi Wrageowrapper,

Can I ask your real name? It's a tradition not to use handles here.

You might find it helpful to expand your concept of the word "edit." It can mean cut out material, rearrange material, elaborate on material, or refine grammar and spelling. With 400 skills and so many other items in your magnum opus I think the primary question is not "should I edit?" it's "what should I cut or clarify?" You have two gauges for this:

1) What is the purpose and vision of your game? Include only enough to support this.

2) Take it to lay readers -- people who don't know the game yet -- and get their feedback. Don't ask them if "should I cut" or "How can I make this better" instead, ask them "did you understand it all?"  If more than one person has trouble with a text, then you consider what might be causing their difficulty, using their comments and suggestions as clues.

1) is your ultimate compass, but 2) is the best way to get perspective on your work.

[Wrageowrapper]

My real name is Daniel.

One of my problems is that my vision for the game also changes and morphs the more I work on it, but what I wanted was a game that was highly open ended and huge while also being silly and fun. As a DnD player I enjoy things that are epic and long complicated rule sets but I was getting sick and tired of Elves and Paladins being all poncy. To this degree I think I have succeeded, it has jumped away from that mold of role playing while still retaining a deep game play style.

So I guess what I mean my editing is in fact formating everything in an easy to read document. I was actually thinking of having some of my more complicated stuff optional extras that you can chose not to have. For example there is this Call of Cthulu esque madness system where a player can temporarily go insane. Its great fun but it doesn't make or break a game, its just there so you can watch your best friend have a repressed memory nightmare after he failed his roll. So instead of just cutting it out I was thinking of having it as an option.

[David Artman]

To follow up in the same vein as Alan, you have several aspects to the concept "edit":

Organize into discrete, logical, easy-to-digest chunks.
Make readable (easy to understand now) and scanable (easy to reference later).
Make clear, concise rules references.
Make evocative and exciting blurbs, examples, and notes.
Start from general and work up to specifics or options.

Now, all of the above speaks to copyediting for consistency and factual accuracy, proofreading grammar and punctuation, book design and layout, fontography, part and chapter and section divisions, and even placement of graphics and artwork. A "Production Editor" will consider all of those on a final print proof, though the specific duties are often apportioned to get the work done prior to the final print proof (particularly copyediting and proofreading versus design and layout).

In my opinion, if you do not do all of those things to a game of the scale you describe, few people will finish reading it all (or even read enough to get the gist of it and know where to look up specifics when they need them). But, then again, I am a professional technical editor and typesetter... so I kind of have a bias.

I was actually thinking of having some of my more complicated stuff optional extras that you can chose not to have.

Well if you have 400 skills and something like 20 race/class combos, then why not follow suit with 80% of all other game systems and companies: release the core system with the "guts" of the game--the really exciting, meaty, indespensible elements--and then release the reams of add-ons and expansions as supplements (i.e. separate books)?

That way you not only can reduce your initial work to a manageable level (after apportioning content to the supplements), but you also keep the eventual price point of the book lower than $100 (you realize how much a book the size you describe would cost to print, unless you do it in 6 point type, right?). Your customers could take a smaller bite, with the core book, and then save up for the expansions they know they'll use, rather than paying for the "fully stocked kitchen" when all they want to do is microwave popcorn.

Hope this helps. It sounds like, with a solid plan and a diligence, you could launch a whole product line off your Opus....
David

[Valamir]

One of my problems is that my vision for the game also changes and morphs the more I work on it, but what I wanted was...

Here's the best advice I've ever received on the above issue.

"Write more than one game"

In other words when your vision starts to morph too dramatically its probably a sign that you have multiple things that you want to say / address.  You don't have to say / address them all in the same game.  Write one that says / addresses one thing...then write a different one that says / addresses something else. 

Trying to scratch all itches at once will both drive you crazy and result in a game that can never ever be finished.

[Justin Nichol - BFG]

One of my problems is that my vision for the game also changes and morphs the more I work on it, but what I wanted was...

Here's the best advice I've ever received on the above issue.

"Write more than one game"

In other words when your vision starts to morph too dramatically its probably a sign that you have multiple things that you want to say / address.  You don't have to say / address them all in the same game.  Write one that says / addresses one thing...then write a different one that says / addresses something else. 

Trying to scratch all itches at once will both drive you crazy and result in a game that can never ever be finished.

totally agreed. another question I had was, has anyone in any of your playtest sessions ever come close to using even half the material you have provided, it's not a bad thing to have a lot of options but with 400 skills it seems to me there might be some redundancy or categorical skills that could be introduced. For instance it's far better in my opinion to have a Science skill with maybe a short paragraph listing several areas of the science skill the person can take or specialize in than have 8 pages of skills people are not gonna use any more than normal with the added granularity.

[Wrageowrapper]

Thanks for all the replies people, I have solved a small number of my problems with this crazy piece of work already, most appreciated.

I was never really intending to sell my rule set, especially not for $100 a piece...hot damn that would be nice though. Instead I was actually just going to distribute for free online using the amazing powers of PDF. So in that regards size really doesn't matter, unless you par $100 per megabyte downloaded.

However, I have taken your advice and am currently dividing what I have into core rules that must be in, and rules which are still cool but can be added as a sort of expansion pack, extra book. Just so people can jump in really quickly and have a blast without scanning through pages upon pages of junk about ship mechanics or goat attachments (I hate that chapter).

Another thing. I seem to have given the impression that each character will have access to 400 skills. In reality each character at max level will probably have access to around 16 class based skills and 20 universal skills. Another thing to remember is  that quite a lot of these skills are passive. But still, 400 is still kind of excessive I agree.

I will be holding a play test, hopefully, this weekend. So I will update you all on how things turned out.

[Jo]

Just so people can jump in really quickly and have a blast without scanning through pages upon pages of junk about ship mechanics or goat attachments (I hate that chapter).

I shouldn't post, because I have little to add, but my brain yearns for knowledge... Do you really have a chapter about goat attachments, or was that a typing error?

[David C]

I recommend pre-made characters for your play test, or plan that to be your entire session. Also, a book that has battle-goats and various attachments would probably be well suited to a rules light system. That could be fun, sort of a "Kobolds ate my baby" game.

It sounds like you have conflicting goals.

[Wrageowrapper]

Goat attachments doesn't quite have its own chapter no, but it is suppose to be goat attachments and not a typo. A character with a high level in the robotics skill can do some pretty zany stuff and being able to outfit hoofed animals with heat sensory flak cannons just seemed like an obvious choice to add in.

A complex rules system and silly humor are not necessarily mutually exclusive, you can have both if it works...I hope.

[Jo]

Goat attachments doesn't quite have its own chapter no, but it is suppose to be goat attachments and not a typo. A character with a high level in the robotics skill can do some pretty zany stuff and being able to outfit hoofed animals with heat sensory flak cannons just seemed like an obvious choice to add in.

Awesome.

[Alex Johnson]

Wow.  For 400 skills.  And for "goat attachments".  I'm in awe.  Like the other poster said, people learn and love Hero (and GURPS) and those are insanely large rule sets.  From where I stand I see three things you can do:

1.  Edit = remove and reduce.  Focus on pruning the unnecessary.  You may be able to extend one skill to cover 10 if you put a little bit of explanation into how to apply it to different situations.  You may also find something totally essential and so you list it first or create a table of "most important" to go at the top of your list.

2.  Edit = separate out the essentials.  Put the "core" rules and options together, then put together a second (and third, fourth, etc) suppliment.  Ever heard of the Rolemaster RPG?  Rolemaster Companions pretty much made up the entire product for most people.  D&D 3E is like that too with endless volumes (PHB, PHB2, DMG, DMG2, MM 1-4, "splat" books, etc).

3.  Edit = separate out the rules.  Put the "rules" and all the mechanics stuff together in one place.  Then make up booklets for each of the huge lists of things that go into your game.  So a "races" booklet, "classes" booklet, "skills" booklet, "spells" booklet, "equipment" booklet, "goat attachments" booklet, etc.  People can find what they want fast.  If I want a spell, I grab the spell booklet and everything is there.  This organization might be better if you are making the game for yourself and friends, not for the public at large.  Option #2 always results in "Okay, I can't find X.  Which book is it in?  You don't have that one?".