Best of the Forge?

[Grex]

I can't help but notice that many of the games presented here are of a very high quality. I can also see that  their brevity makes them hard to market and sell in todays crowded marketplace.

So I wondered if you guys would ever consider a collaborative effort along the lines of 'the Best Role-Playing Games of the Forge', a 'Forge Jam', so to speak?

Imagine a book the size and format of a standard D&D3E-module containing, say, Metäl Öpera, Wuthering Heights, Final Fight, Soap, and Cthonian. Hey, it would be a manifesto of RPG-independence! :^)

What say you? Would the anthology-approach work, and is it even doable?

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Now, that's a right nice idea, but it would require such a large amount of red tape to waddle through since we're talking about getting permission from all of the various authors to publish I doubt it'd be worth it. The red tape is not so much to get the anthology made in the first place so much as to make sure everyone remains happy about it afterwards. I seem to recall that the movie and soundtrack for Heavy Metal languished in a legal limbo for years because of the various artists contributing (not sure how true this is, but it's the kind of thing to think about)

What I mean is, it may wind up being more trouble than it's worth in the long run. Exposure, exschmosure. I always say.

[Matt Gwinn]

Hey,
I just got back from GENCON and I have to say that the collaborative effort of having all of our games together in the same booth worked wonders for everyone's sales.  As far as I can tell everyone's games sold very well due to the group effort.  As of yesterday Octane and Dust Devils were completely sold out and I wouldn't be surprised if Violence Future and Inspectres sold out today.  Kayfabe would likely have sold out as well, had I stayed.

How does this relate to the thread at hand?  Simple, if we could work out an anthology of games as well as we worked out things at the booth it would be awsome.  However, we would have to sell it for $100 or more (that's what it would be worth) which means not many people would buy it.

I think an anthology would be a nice thing to own, but I also think that most of our games would be better served on their own.  Putting them all together in one book would be a disservice to the value of the individual games as we would be forced to sell the anthology for a reasonable price.

,Matt G.

[Gonster]

As of yesterday Octane and Dust Devils were completely sold out and I wouldn't be surprised if Violence Future and Inspectres sold out today. Kayfabe would likely have sold out as well, had I stayed.

Off topic, but:

How can I get my grubby little paws on Violence Future?

Thanks in advance,
Gonster

[Ron Edwards]

Hello Grex,

As you might imagine, this idea has been discussed before. A few years ago, I very badly wanted to organize and market a potential indie-compilation, a garage-band album, so to speak. However, a couple of things changed my mind.

The first issue is just as Jack described: logistics. We are talking about a group of independent RPGs, which means each one is owned in full. Who's the publisher of the compilation? Using the very strict definition of "independent" that I prefer, if one person or company is the publisher, then they aren't indie any more. If this seems like a niggling or semantic issue, then I can only point to the comics and music businesses, in which the lessons are written very large. Either you own it or you don't, and if you don't publish it yourself ... then to a very real extent, you don't.

OK, say everyone doesn't care about that, and there's a publisher-guy. Fine.
- Now, who gets the money? Royalties? Why should I accept royalties for a game I own, rather than a percent of the gross?
- What if this other guy's game is three pages and mine is 37 pages and has the color art?
- What about costs, anyway? Who chips in, and how much?
- And so on and on.

I am not saying these problems are surmountable - I am saying they are significant, and more importantly, their solutions are significant, to the extent that the number of people who are willing to participate in a given compilation will drop sharply.

The second issue is a basic marketing one: cross-promotion works better than gumbo. If seventeen games are published, each with nine or ten ads in the back that add up to all being promoted by one another, then it sends a much different message than seventeen games in one book. In my view, the first demonstrates a cooperative show of strength, which is exactly what it is; the second is perceived, rightly or wrongly, as a huddling of weakness.

The real place for this concept is the compilation-website: access to a variety of great games in one spot, with the basic assumption being that these games are fiery little bastards. Such a thing would be more than a collection of links, such as the Forge's Resource Library (or Chris' Free RPG page, way back when, for that matter, which was Sorcerer's first link-trade!). Instead, it would be the actual site of many games' promotional material, download (for free ones), and buy-buttons (for not-free ones). If it were constructed with clever web-hosting or other means, the overhead would be nil.

Gonster, your query turns out to be extremely relevant. Dav Harnish and Jason Gunn are launching their website, Unfortunate Destinies, whose purpose is strictly to be, in full, exactly such a garage-punk compilation of games. Dav should be posting about this any minute now, right? Dav?

Best,
Ron

[Grex]

(several good points snipped)[/b]

The real place for this concept is the compilation-website: access to a variety of great games in one spot, with the basic assumption being that these games are fiery little bastards. Such a thing would be more than a collection of links, such as the Forge's Resource Library (or Chris' Free RPG page, way back when, for that matter, which was Sorcerer's first link-trade!). Instead, it would be the actual site of many games' promotional material, download (for free ones), and buy-buttons (for not-free ones). If it were constructed with clever web-hosting or other means, the overhead would be nil.

Hmmm. I see your point(s). Perhaps the web is indeed the perfect marketplace for indie RPG's. Still, it's a shame -- I feel that many gamers, especially old-school D&D-heads -- are ready for more narrativism, and that a 'Forge Jam' in an inexpensive format might have been an easy way to bring in some new blood.

I guess I'll just have to wander the wastelands and spread the word, not that I mind doing it :^)

PS: Would you take a check or a Western Union transfer for a copy of Elfs?

[Jonathan Walton]

AN ANTHOLOGY IS COMPLETELY POSSIBLE!

After reading this thread, I agree with this statement more than I ever did before.  Sure, if some people get anal about copyright and payment, it could be tricky.  But, if you make it completely clear from the outset that A) anything you submit is still owned by you, it's just being liscenced for sale in an anthology, and B) your payment is a copy of the PDF to sell on your own website.  I think that solves most problems.

To clarify...

The first issue is just as Jack described: logistics. We are talking about a group of independent RPGs, which means each one is owned in full. Who's the publisher of the compilation?

The Forge is.  We get volunteers to do all the editing, design work, and illustrations, and then we turn it into a PDF which is then turned over to the contributers to sell and advertise.

- Now, who gets the money?

If you sell copies of the game through your website, you get to pocket the profits.  This is a way of balancing the fact that some people might buy a copy just to get "Metal Opera" or whatever game they happened to like best.

Copies sold through non-creator-owned sites like RPGnow or RPGnet Mall would either get donated to a charity or cause (i.e. CBLDF or some such) or divided evenly among the contributers (nomatter how much they contributed).

In any case, the rules for payment would be made explicitly before submissions were accepted.  There would be some kind of release form that submitters would have to sign, saying that they agreed to the terms.

- What if this other guy's game is three pages and mine is 37 pages and has the color art?

That's your problem.  Maybe your game is 50 pages of crap and the other guy's is 3 pages of brilliant glory.  Page count wouldn't matter.  Everyone gets an equal share.  If people don't like this, they don't have to submit anything lengthy.

- What about costs, anyway? Who chips in, and how much?

There are no costs.  Everyone volunteers their time and some people volunteer to coordinate efforts and find replacements if things don't get finished by a certain date.  All volunteers recieve the same payment (i.e. a copy of the finished PDF to sell on their website).

If seventeen games are published, each with nine or ten ads in the back that add up to all being promoted by one another, then it sends a much different message than seventeen games in one book.

I don't know.  I'd be much more likely to buy a compilation of 17 games I'd never heard of, just on the chance that there'd surely be ONE of them that I would actually use.  This is especially true of buying a PDF, where you can just print out the pages of stuff that you actually like, and leave the rest alone.

The real place for this concept is the compilation-website: access to a variety of great games in one spot, with the basic assumption being that these games are fiery little bastards.

The problem being that such a website would be more likely the work of a single individual and not a collective of indy-rpg designers and entusiasts.  The fun of this kind of project, I think, is in working with other designers and bringing the community closer together.  There are a ton of great people out there that I'd love to work with, and this might be the chance to make that happen.

Also, it's a chance for indy games to support indy game designers.  If I submit my current project "Mo, the PBeM RPG" to be used and then other contributers sell copies of it as part of the anthology, I'm supporting them!  They're getting money from a book we produced together (since they sold the copies) and also promoting my work at the same time (though I'd only get money from the copies I sold on my site).

Any other problems I missed?

Later.
Jonathan

[Zak Arntson]

If it counts, I'm willing to do a one-time publishing agreement. I would prefer to see the pdf on sale (fixed price) on every contributor's own site with proceeds going directly to the Forge.

Making it directly available from the Forge would be an implication of "Forge = These Authors." Instead the Forge could have a blurb page describing the project and linking to each author's website (with the blurb careful not to equate The Forge to the specific writers).

Perhaps I'm too worried about the perception of the Forge being too insular?

[Jeffrey Miller]

The first issue is just as Jack described: logistics. We are talking about a group of independent RPGs, which means each one is owned in full. Who's the publisher of the compilation?

Me.  Well, maybe not /me/, but what if someone stepped up and said, "I'm going to bankroll and be responsible for the production and distribution of an indie anthology."?  

- What if this other guy's game is three pages and mine is 37 pages and has the color art?

That's your problem.  Maybe your game is 50 pages of crap and the other guy's is 3 pages of brilliant glory.  Page count wouldn't matter.  Everyone gets an equal share.  If people don't like this, they don't have to submit anything lengthy.

A more proffesional way to aproach the problem would be to set reasonable expectations for submissions - between N,000 and (N+X),000 words.. Frex, a chapter from this game, a chapter from that game, and a whole version of this game over here...

If seventeen games are published, each with nine or ten ads in the back that add up to all being promoted by one another, then it sends a much different message than seventeen games in one book.

I don't know.  I'd be much more likely to buy a compilation of 17 games I'd never heard of, just on the chance that there'd surely be ONE of them that I would actually use.

I'd have to agree.. with both of you.  I think that the point of an anthology is to give a little taste of the talent and work being done "out there" without having to commit or waste time, money, and mental bandwidth on crap. If one could purchase 1 book of 17 systems that offer enough to be playable, but not enough for a long, extended game (GURPS Lite?) wouldn't that be worth something? Isn't there a market for that?

[Jonathan Walton]

If it counts, I'm willing to do a one-time publishing agreement. I would prefer to see the pdf on sale (fixed price) on every contributor's own site with proceeds going directly to the Forge.

This would be another good way to do it.  Contributers would be donating material to support The Forge, and would get no profits from the sale of the anthology.  All money would go directly towards whatever server/time/domain costs The Forge has.

Making it directly available from the Forge would be an implication of "Forge = These Authors." Instead the Forge could have a blurb page describing the project and linking to each author's website (with the blurb careful not to equate The Forge to the specific writers).

This is exactly what I was thinking.  If you'll look at Crossgen Comics' method of online viewing, it's exactly like this:

http://www.comicsontheweb.com/">http://www.comicsontheweb.com/

They list a series of comic-related sites where you can view their stuff, supporting the sites while getting people to read their stuff.  You can't view the comics directly on Crossgen's site (just like you couldn't get the anthology directly from The Forge) and this encourages buyers to browse through the other stuff available on the various sites.

Like Zak said, this would make it clear that the anthology was a product of "some of the designers who hang out at The Forge" and not "The Forge Designers."  Also, every anthology copy should have submission intructions for the next anthology and information on how to be a part of The Forge community (basically, "show up and register").

Later.
Jonathan

[Jonathan Walton]

Well, maybe not /me/, but what if someone stepped up and said, "I'm going to bankroll and be responsible for the production and distribution of an indie anthology."?

Well, if I can't raise enough support for the idea here at The Forge, I might come close to doing that.  Maybe not soon, but eventually.

Honestly, bankrolling a PDF anthology of donated material would likely have minimal costs, outside of any advertising you wanted to do.  And the production/distribution end of things?  Well, I'd be glad to do that kind of thing anyway.  Promoting indy-RPGs is fun.

If I needed it, I have a feeling that a small PDF-game company like Rogue Publishing would also be willing to handle some of the production/distribution stuff.  Still, that's moving further away from the idea of an independent anthology, so I don't know how much I like that.

Later.
Jonathan