Proposed house Rule: Shield Charge

[Thirsty Viking]

After posting on the orc attacks in Moria  I have given some thought to this.  Here is a rough  working draft of a new house rule.

Attack Manuver:    Shield Charge

Medium and large shields only
ATN 5 for medium
ATN 4 for large

Attack may not be blocked or parried. but may be countered with very long or extremely long range weapons if charge starts from beyond thier range by targeting the legs.  

Activation cost, is cost to close  max 6d.

Dammage based on Move or distance of charge in yards  which ever is less.      
If I charge two yards, then 2+ success margin for DL
If I charge 7+ (move 7) then i'm assumed to be at max move.

Use blugeoning tables for thrust zone chest  Shock damage only
presented here for review.
lvl 1     5 - wp
lvl 2     4
lvl 3     8
lvl 4    10
lvl 5    ALL   +(my addition)   Knockdown no save

If target is surprised or attacked from side/rear then toughnes reduction is lost.  (the effect of being unprepared)

If target loses all his remaining CP due to shock a saving throw vs knockdown is made with a TN of 2x  the opponents margin of success.  as per the published rules.

This assumes that targets are of relatively equal mass,  I'd assess a modifier of (larger-smaller) / (smaller/2)  rounded down in damage levels in favor of the larger.

ex1.    200 lb man charges 100 lb man ...   +2 damage levels
ex2.    100 lb man charges 200 lb man ...   -2  damage levels
ex3       50 lb child charges 100 lb man  ...  -2 damage levels
ex4       50 lb child charges 200 lb man ...   -6 damage levels

Any thoughts?  Obvious weakness?  too strong?

[Sneaky Git]

In my mind, a shield charge is really two separate, discrete actions linked together by time.  You charge.. you then strike (read: "bash") someone with your shield.  Treating it as one attack, with such low ATN seems (and I'll be the first to admit, I have no practical experience) to be too generous.

Attack may not be blocked or parried. but may be countered with very long or extremely long range weapons if charge starts from beyond thier range by targeting the legs.

And unblockable?  Ouch.  What about someone with a shield?  Could that cause a (more or less) glancing blow?  Or how about the oft-underestimated "get the hell out of the way" maneuver, evasion (either partial- or full-)?

Here are a couple other questions: Might the attacker take damage himself?  What happens if someone meets your charge.. and pushes back?  Would this be a function of mass and acceleration.. for both?

It seems to me that this is almost more of a movement maneuver.. similar to a charge.

I apologize for the apparent random nature of this post.. just woke up. ;)

[Mokkurkalfe]

Sneaky Git has a point.
How about a simple Charge maneuver, followed by whatever you wish?

[Jake Norwood]

I personally handle charges as offensive stances, personally.

Just my 2 pfennig

Jake

[Thirsty Viking]

well, other than shock and maybe a knock down  it does NO damage.

I saw it as unblockable because block implies taking the blow on your shield or weapon....   the point of a shield charge.   I didn't see these as effective counter measures agains so desperate an action.  

any charge of distance is eating up dice in activation cost and giving damage increases.... remember chargers strength is alway ignored though.   Probably needs a requirement of 2-3 yards to get the required momentum.  the momentum of hurling your body into the assult is much greator then just swinging a weapon.   And the surface are of the blow  makes it easier to hit though less likely to result in permanent harm.  

If you wanted to assess 1/2 damage level in shock to the charger  I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that.  Since any decent charge attemp is going to be near total commitment of CP to score a knockdown,  this would force reflex saves to stay on his feet.  

Might even rule a trip on the defender getting 3 more dodge success then charge success.

This is how I saw it anyway.   Hadn't  worked my way through failed charges and any other attendant negatives.   Just know that this type of tactic emerges in other games.  In my group, it is fairly popular....   So I wanted to be prepared before I encountered it.

[Thirsty Viking]

In my mind, a shield charge is really two separate, discrete actions linked together by time.  You charge.. you then strike (read: "bash") someone with your shield.  Treating it as one attack, with such low ATN seems (and I'll be the first to admit, I have no practical experience) to be too generous.

Trying to swing (or punch) a shield at someone would be like you have desribed.  Putting your shoulder behind your shield and trying to run through them, is what I have tried to describe.  

Think a blitzing line backer...  a QB  can't block him (he has to dodge, or get rid of the ball first,  rarely he will not be knocked down and break away),  though a running back might might be executing a simultaneous charge against the LB.  The same linebacker rarely has enough momentum to knock down an offensive lineman in the way  (not enough speed yet).

Ok another sports analagy.....   but the only thing outside of sumo wrestling or rugby I could thinkof in the modern world that compares.

Sneaky Git has a point.
How about a simple Charge maneuver, followed by whatever you wish?

No need for a charge manuver that only closes distance,  that is covered in the closing cost,   mine is an  overbearing attack...  designed to knock someone down or reduce combat pool through shock,  but otherwise of little effect.

[viktor_haag]

I personally handle charges as offensive stances, personally.

Just my 2 pfennig

Jake

How does one handle shield bashes? You can bash with a shield without having to charge, though, right? What's the ATN and Damage ratings for the shields when bashing with them?

--
Viktor

[Thirsty Viking]

I personally handle charges as offensive stances, personally.

Just my 2 pfennig

Jake

How does one handle shield bashes? You can bash with a shield without having to charge, though, right? What's the ATN and Damage ratings for the shields when bashing with them?

--
Viktor

If it's a buckler (assuming it's on fist),  i'd treat a thrust as a punch with a gauntlet on).  If the edge is sharpend and it is swung, i'd treat it as a swung dagger.  possibly a thrust dager if it is spiked and punched with.

Larger shields i'd apply a - modifier to for a thrust....   too big.   If swung i might use Quarter staff - 1 dam level  and possibly +1 ATN

These are how I'd handle  shield as weapon...   Any comments JAKE?

Lets also remember that shield are in the off hand,  unless Jake rules these as Manuvers of the School,  (in which case he'll give an activation cost)  these recieve +1d for the Attack if from the Left hand.  If the charachter is not AMBIDEXTROUS then he will be at -5d for the attack if he hasn't trained  OFF-HAND WEAPONRY Proficency...   This can be trained up to 3 points  for a MINIMUM offhand penalty of -2d

OFF-HAND WEAPONRY being a House Proficency  (at least until tFoB)

[Jake Norwood]

A buckler, IMO, would be less damaging than a gauntlet due to the larger amount of space the force is distributed accross. Thrusting with larger shields seems like it might be clumsy to me as an actual damaging manevuer, but I confess that I have minimal realistic experience with any shield other than a buckler. I know that the edge of a shield can be a pretty nasty lil' bugger. As for damage, I might not credit it so high as a quarterstaff, seeing as qs's are so horribly leathal IRL.

Jake

ps. I was thinking about off-hand mods again, and -5 might be stiff, remembering that a decently trained fighter (like me?) would have around 8-10 dice. Not sure what it should be, but I'll be thinking on it.

[Thirsty Viking]

well it does get the +1 if its the left hand

and a decent fighter would "probably" train the negatives down....  to a -2

Certainly this is my answer to the SCA crowd...  they practice that way because of losing thier arms in fights.  I left you the out of making the shield attack things part of the School in FoB.

This is easiest at char creation of cource.   This would be a "Degree" of handed ness...  another incentive for Swordslingers to push thier Proficencies up another priority.  Not only do they want 7 in sword,  but 3 in off hand fighting...  alas leaving only 4 for thier missle weapon. :-)

Not to mention the gladiator duels where the right warm was armored and cuffed to a girdle to make it unusable.   :-)

As for the Quarter staff i said -1 damage level...  perhaps it needs to be -2 damage levels...  and i suggested possible a higher ATN than a Quarter staff.  that was only when swinging it edge on though.

John