The Riddle of Steel, SMG's and lasers

[Mike Holmes]

I really thought you were joking 'bout carrying a Dragon at first.

Sorry, I just assumed that everyone knew what a Dragon launcher was.

Mike

[Thirsty Viking]

Hell no, I never said that at all. I agree that the TN I gave is for target shooting, prone supported position, some small amount of time to aim, etc. I agree with all your modifiers above.

Ok I had specified before that those effects would be part of a system bu not the base numbers...  I didn't realize you were including them.  Even so,  at those ranges  for our system ...  you need to look beyond the TN's to the % hits ...  you can dispute my 8d  base line if you want..  certainly nothing sacred about it...   but since you didn't,  and noone else here did,  I'll assume that is basicly acceptable.

Snapshots would be much higherr, TN more like 14, 15 or maybe higher. And using the doubling effect, you do have to put a max range on shots. Anything over 800 meters is a completely random and unaimed shot.

A well selected range increments just reduces the success results to limit this.   My proposed system reduces my standard shot to a 7% hit level ...  It depends what you mean by snap shots....  if you mean firing from the hip or whatever... i agree a TN is in order, but the biggest effect IMO is rolling 4d instead of 8d.  if you doing snap shots every second..  probably 3d assuming recoil of 1 in the 2nd and succeeding rounds.

You are, of course correct about the TN> 10 problem where the odds do not increase linearly.

Actually, it was the leargd drop from 9 to 10 that i was talking bout....   not a huge problem...  just an annoyance.  Given the precipitous drop at that range increment.  Since it doesn't drop at all from 10 to 11.

So you could declare any penalty that goes above ten to be doubled, or something. So a +1 TN added to a 10 TN would be a 12TN, and a +2 would be a 14TN (Hey, that's cool because it takes care of the TN 11 problem). In any case, this problem exists for both our methods. OTOH, it does make your method look a bit more like what I intend. Hmmm. That's probably still true with the doubling method.

I agree with all this (including the artillery comment; again, I give it a max range of 800 meters). Scopes would increase the max range, of course. M16s come equipped these days with a scope mount. Not that I've ever seen one with a scope on it either, and I agree that it would not be the weapon of choice (lots of snipers still use M14s strangely). But one could. I'm not sure how it's germain to the discussion, however.

Ah...   I was using it to show combat limitations of range by the M16 in the real world in standard configuration.  The landing zone was under fire and the platoons there were pinned down and couldn't engage the shooters (not effectively anyway)  given that they had M16's  and possibly M60's (or whatever has replaced it, but you can't shoot what you can't see)  as a normal infantry detatchment.   The snipers were given 5 bronze stars  (well authorized..  some snafu with canadian gov...) for saving the americans.

Well, I disagree. The GURPS rules seem to me and many others to be well designed. Considering that their line editor, Sean Punch (AKA Dr. Kromm), has a doctorate in Physics, I'm not surprised. It is an abstraction, as are all models, but one that is well thought out. In any case, I'd agree as I have before, that TROS's system works well for muscle powered weapons, but not for firearms which operate in a very different fashion.

I agree that the rules as a whole are wonderful.  That being said, a sniper charachter without a scope can hit quite easily at EXTREME ranges with an m16.  
As long as I am talking Scopes:  I believe that a scope should add to the range increment instead of modify the die roll. I'd have to look at it to get final numbers...  Untill i do probably use a rule of thumb of adding 5 yards for each factor of magnification above 1, 10 yards if range is known within 20yards.  And the scope is propely adjusted for range.  Another nice thing about lasers,  propperly scoped...   you never have to adjust it for drop...  or windage effect.  so it would always be at + 10yards /per x-1

And it explains the PB phenomenon.

Sorry i missed it....   I'll look back...  but what point blank phenomenon  were you discussing?
In my opinion you only close within 50m  when you are either not sure where the enemy are,  and/or can't get a shot from further away(frequently the choice.

On a side issue...  how far can you throw a grenade effectiely?   Could this be part of the closing in...  assuming no handy 203?

[Mike Holmes]

As long as I am talking Scopes:  I believe that a scope should add to the range increment instead of modify the die roll. I'd have to look at it to get final numbers...  Untill i do probably use a rule of thumb of adding 5 yards for each factor of magnification above 1, 10 yards if range is known within 20yards.  And the scope is propely adjusted for range.  Another nice thing about lasers,  propperly scoped...   you never have to adjust it for drop...  or windage effect.  so it would always be at + 10yards /per x-1

Hmmm. Seems logical, actually, to just multiply the range modifier by the magnification. Seems too powerful, however. There must be some mitigating factor.

Sorry i missed it....   I'll look back...  but what point blank phenomenon  were you discussing?

Hadn't been. It just occurs to me that a shot at Point Blank should be easier with a firearm than one at 40 or 50 meters. Neither of our earlier systems would allow for that. The Base range on the muscle powered weapons is small enough that you get a bracket that covers Point Blank by default. HAndguns would probaby have this effect as well. Rifles might not need it. But what about autofire again, then? That should certainly have greater effects at shorter ranges than 50 meters. Or is that why rifles now have the burst option? Probably moot.

In my opinion you only close within 50m  when you are either not sure where the enemy are,  and/or can't get a shot from further away(frequently the choice.

On a side issue...  how far can you throw a grenade effectiely?   Could this be part of the closing in...  assuming no handy 203?

Well, there are certainly other reaons for closing in. Flanking not the least of them. But my point is that it probably is easier to hit with a firearm at close range than at 50 m. That's all.

Anyhow, as I've said, probably not interesting enough to include rules for.

Mike

[Thirsty Viking]

Hadn't been. It just occurs to me that a shot at Point Blank should be easier with a firearm than one at 40 or 50 meters. Neither of our earlier systems would allow for that. The Base range on the muscle powered weapons is small enough that you get a bracket that covers Point Blank by default. HAndguns would probaby have this effect as well. Rifles might not need it.

Hand guns would have a range increment of 20yards or less.  actually for effective use the range might be much like a bow.  just looked it up,  10-25 yards...  sounds too long for handguns...   I was only proposing the Range increment  for an m16.  Hiting with a handgun 56% of the time at 100 yards...   is too  generous I think.  Sharpshooter and Expertshooter would still get thier bonus.  hmmm  at a at a range increment of 10m the
Average Joe would hit a man sized target 33.66%  and an Expertshooter 48.68  This sounds good for a quickly aimed shot.  Losing 4d  for the snap shot adds plenty of negatives....  hand gun recoil effects are probably  1/2 the damage their damage rounded up.

[Thirsty Viking]

I considered scopes as simply multipling...   but a large amount of misses at range are caused by miniscule innaccuracies in aiming/ scope alignment or shooting techniqe if properly sighted, or even a step in an unexpected direction just before the shot.  For these reasons I didn't give a straight multiplication modifier.  This being said  a 6X scope gives a shooting result of halving the distance modifier.  11 x is at 1/3 the distance modifier.  hmm a 900 meter shot going from a hit % of 5.46 % for JoeAve to 52.97%  Joe Sharpshooter hitting 83.22% of the time.
Perhaps not perfect...  but a workable game solution I think.  
An optional use in the spirit of rolling many dice...  allow a scoped rifle the users AG * squareroot(magnification facto) bonus dice on aimed shots.    AG bonus dice with 2x, 2*AG at 4x, 3*AG at 9x, 4*AG at 16X.
no too much,  how about 2*(mag-1) bunus dice.  10X scope is 20 bonus dice...  yikes   lol  snipers always have been scary

This would actually work Very well.  Divide bonus dice by 2 if the scope is aligned but set to wrong range.   If scope is out of alignment  from jaring...   the shot missed beyond 1st increment...   This gives Joe Average with a scope the same TN but LOTS more dice.  Allowing the head shots at a TN penalty etc...  hmmm    Would have to be an aimed shot, not snap...  in fact with a scope i'd penalive a snap shot unless the shooter was looking through the scope when he spotted his target of opportunity.

Here are how Scopes would modify an M-16   ....  Before the objections come... there are btter weapons for sniping than an m16...   they have a longer range increment.  

Code Select Expand

TN M16    8d    2x    5x  10x   15x    20x
09 150 83.22% 89.26% 97.19% 99.70% 99.97% 100.00%
10 200 56.95% 65.13% 81.47% 93.54% 97.75% 99.21%
14 400 44.04% 51.60% 68.69% 84.84% 92.67% 96.45%
20 700 7.73% 9.56% 14.85% 23.00% 30.36% 37.02%
26 1000 3.93% 4.89% 7.71% 12.22% 16.51% 20.59%
30 1200 0.80% 1.00% 1.59% 2.57% 3.54% 4.50%
36 1500 0.40% 0.50% 0.80% 1.29% 1.78% 2.27%

Assumptions in above table  
Wit = 4
1 second of deicated aiming yields 2* wit  MP(firing every other rd)
MP >= Wit *2
M-16 base range of 50yards
Scope adds (magnification factor -1)x2 bonus MP dice to aimed shots.
shots are fired standing up without other aiming aids/support

Note-  other weapons like sniper rifles would have longer range increments.  MacMillin Tac-50  might be 100 y  For instance.

Hmmm, i had an error in my post, i've edited it...  %'s seem a little week.  maybe if we add 20 yards to range increment and use more dice  ....

Code Select Expand

TN M16 range 8d scoped      2x    5x 10x     15x    20x
11 0250 056.95% 0350 65.13% 81.47% 93.54% 97.75% 99.21%
13 0350 048.68% 0490 56.56% 73.66% 88.56% 95.03% 97.84%
14 0400 044.04% 0560 51.60% 68.69% 84.84% 92.67% 96.45%
16 0500 033.66% 0700 40.13% 55.99% 73.65% 84.22% 90.55%
17 0550 027.86% 0770 33.52% 47.96% 65.40% 77.00% 84.71%
18 0600 021.63% 0840 26.26% 38.57% 54.70% 66.60% 75.37%
19 0650 014.92% 0910 18.29% 27.62% 40.86% 51.68% 60.52%
20 0700 007.73% 0980 09.56% 14.85% 23.00% 30.36% 37.02%
21 0750 007.73% 1050 09.56% 14.85% 23.00% 30.36% 37.02%
26 1000 003.93% 1400 04.89% 07.71% 12.22% 16.51% 20.59%
28 1100 002.37% 1540 02.96% 04.69% 07.51% 10.25% 12.91%
36 1500 000.40% 2100 00.50% 00.80% 01.29% 1.78% 2.27%

these last numbers have the right FEEL to me for game play.  comments from people more familiar with scope effectivness are welcome.  Just remember the average simiautomatic hunting rifle may have different range increment.  Especially sniper weapons.

[Thirsty Viking]

I found an error in my tables,  when I fixed it the numbers were weak,  so i modified the previous post with a new option.  It feels good to me from a GAMEPLAY standpoint.    Comments are welcome.