Spartan Sorcerer

[Ron Edwards]

Sorcery = committing to the state/gods = not exciting?

?!

I believe Creon holds forth on this very thing at length, as does whatsisname (Pentheus?), the prince in The Bacchae who gets torn limb from limb from limb later on.

Is not The Trojan Women specifically about the price of placing The State (abstract honor, patriotism, the gods' temples) over the needs and interests of people?

Hell, what's Lysistrata except a kick in sorcery's teeth by the Humanity types?

I think the problem is the term "passion" in isolation. All of the above, state and personal alike, is passionate. What matters is whether it's passionate commitment to an abstraction or to human beings.

And that's why The Furies (last play in the Orestiad) is, I think, the last word on Greek myth, tragedy, and theme.

'Cause Apollo and Athena, unlike all the other gods, are, in Sorcerer terms, angels, not demons.

Best,
Ron

[erithromycin]

I must confess that I am intrigued by this idea, not least in respects to what the Titanomachy would represent.

That's if, indeed, the Titanomachy needs to represent anything.

- drew

[Tor Erickson]

Mmmm.  Titanomachy?

[clehrich]

On a related note, Gene Wolfe has published I think 2 volumes of a series set in ancient Greece, of which the first is (if I remember correctly) called Soldier of Arete.  If you've read any Wolfe, you won't be surprised to hear that it's extremely weird, very well written, and explores sides of ancient Greece from a genuinely unique perspective.

Titanomachy: Battle/war of the Titans.  I think this is when Zeus and friends open up a can of whoop-ass on the Titans, and end up ruling Olympus.  Something like that.

[erithromycin]

The Titanomachy was when the Titans were killed by the Gods of Olympus. It's strangely similar to events in Norse mythology, where their lot did in the Giants. Basically it's the event where the ruling Pantheon say "Hello! We're going to be in charge now".

The thing is that there are rough correspondences between the Titans and the Gods. Though they are opposed, they are similar. The thing is that I might be intrigued to play a game where the Titanomachy was being played out, not just by the Gods in their plane [not least because the Titans were said to walk the earth, if memory serves] but by those unfortunate souls who worshipped the Titans.

- drew

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Drew,

My only concern with that approach, for purposes of discussion here, is that it has nothing to do with Greek literature and (in game terms) Humanity issues. Unless someone can remind or inform me otherwise, I perceive the Titan stuff in the mythology as being basically, boring and over-with. There're a few of them still around as local color for "days gone by," but that's it. I don't see much point to placing them as a central issue in a Greek-lit type context.

Best,
Ron

[erithromycin]

You're right - the Titanomachy is really a "days gone by" thing. I was really thinking about the giants who represent prime Imminent material.

Though ere are also interesting things in some of the conflicts with relation to the 'will of the gods' vs 'good of the people' thing - Prometheus was a Titan, siding with Zeus in the Titanomachy but stealing fire from the heavens later on.

I'm not sure what that makes Prometheus, unless, of course, he's a 'Spartan Sorcerer' too.

- drew

[edit: tags, hanging or incomplete - 3, drew - nil]

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Prometheus = Sorcerer & Sword hero, with the Lore Descriptor "Old One" (or something like that) and Past descriptor "Immortal."

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

Hey,

So far this discussion has centered on mythic Greece.  What about the Peloponnesian War era?  Would Sparta constitute an entire city-state of low Humanity citizenry under your definition, Ron?

Best,

Blake

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Blake,

Yup! Although with the proviso that I'm staying very literary with that judgment and not talking about real people or real history at all.

Best,
Ron

[Blake Hutchins]

Hello Ron,

Understood.  The notion of Spartan sorcerers taking on the Persian Immortals just caught my imagination.  I love the Hellenic milieu.

Best,

Blake

[Mike Holmes]

Where does Hubris fit in? I was thinking that the hero's demon was his tragic flaw (as well as what empowers him). As such, woudn't humanity be Humility, and a Zero Humanity be a Sorensenian death due to Hubris?

Mike

[b_bankhead]

Where does Hubris fit in? I was thinking that the hero's demon was his tragic flaw (as well as what empowers him). As such, woudn't humanity be Humility, and a Zero Humanity be a Sorensenian death due to Hubris?

Mike

  Well at that level of hubris the gods usually did something reeeeeally nasty to you; siccing the furies on you, turning you into the medusa, turning you into a spider....At zero humanity you become get a mega-kicker which enshrines you as one ofthe supertragic types...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Actually, I see Hubris the other way around. I see it as having high Humanity but coming to a horrible, lonely, and unhappy end. I don't see Hubris and its consequences as low-Humanity at all.

Remember the four outcomes for Sorcerer protagonists:

- Things work out great, and your demons are abandoned or otherwise not involved
- Things work out great, and your demons/you are still linked up
- Things work out badly, and your demons are abandoned or otherwise not involved
- Things work out badly, and your demons/you are still linked up

These are, respectively, Odysseus, Theseus, Oedipus, Jason.

See, it's tricky because we tend to think of the State and Personal combined as a good thing. But this is option #2 above and entails a Humanity tightrope-walk, not option #1 (the safe one).

Also, plenty of characters occupy the "cracks" in this value system, like Medea, so things can get pretty complicated and extremely ambiguous about who's really right.

Best,
Ron