Using graphical methods to demonstrate how to play...

[Mike Holmes]

Does that look like KODT to anyone else?

Mike

[Bankuei]

Yeah, this was the kind of stuff I was referring to.  As far as I understand it, the WW stuff is basically comics displaying the "imaginary action" in the game(Ooh, vampires and werewolves and mages, oh my!) used primarily as color and kewl stuff to hook players, as opposed to literal, "How to play this game here" type stuff.

Even though I can't read japanese, I think some very interesting things are communicated nonetheless.  These comics allow folks to pick up on subtle aspects of actual play social communication issues.  Check out expressions, confusion, irritation, devious looks, etc.  Emotional experiences of the players about the game, dealing with the rules or in game events, etc are available for the new reader.

Consider some emotionally laden events that people talk about in gaming:  "I hate having to look up the rules!", "What about problem players?!?", etc.  All of these have to do with stuff like being irritated having to pause play to look up unclear or complex system stuff, dealing with miscommunication, etc.

I think its a great way to quickly communicate what's going on with the players as much as how to play the game.  The closest thing we have in simply written word is the FAQ question and answer type thing, which is usually stated in a very conversational tone, and comes across with more emotion than typical "instructional" writing.

Chris

[Jared A. Sorensen]

One thing I want to include in a future version of InSpectres is a "dice tank" -- a piece of paper that serves where the players can store Card and Bank dice (with little sections for each type of die pool).

[Ron Edwards]

Wow! I agree with Chris, this is necessary information about the conduct, atmosphere, and communication of play which is largely, perhaps entirely missing from the games we're familiar with.

I have always found examples of how-to-play to be impossibly stilted and all-too-obviously fictional. I think something like what Andy's showing us could be a big deal.

By the way, Andy, usually I'm very hard on people who link pics into their posts, but I'll cut you slack this time. They really made an important point.

Best,
Ron

P.S. Ugly thought: Mike, do you think that KODT is, rather than being read as satire, perhaps being read, by someone, as actual how-to-play? Or read, even worse, as confirmation?

[Michael S. Miller]

Just found this thread. Andy's pic of "how to lay out the tarot card" is similar to a graphic in the TORG and Masterbook rules about how to read and play those games' Drama Deck.

I can't recall exactly, but doesn't Everway also have a diagram similar to this? I know it has one about how in-game characters read the fortune deck to predict the future. (3 cards--past; over them, 2 cards--present; over them, 1 card sideways--future)

So some of the games that have brought in new visual elements (cards in addition to/replacing dice) have used some visual instructions. This is a very cool idea, especially the comics.

Edited to add: Is it just me, or does this thread remind anyone else about the bit in Scott McCloud's Understanding Comics, where he goes into "Here's how comics are different in Japan"? I guess globalization has its up-sides as well.

Following Ron's off-topic "ugly thought": I do think that there are more than a few KODT readers out there who genuinely aspire to the play-style portrayed in the strips. The KODT letter columns are full of such sentiments, especially bashing "Sarah-type players" (the most functional player in the group) and griping that B.A. (the GM) had overstepped his authority in being mean to the guys. I think it's very odd that people love laughing at something, and then try to emulate it. But people are funny, I guess.

[Mike Holmes]

Following Ron's off-topic "ugly thought": I do think that there are more than a few KODT readers out there who genuinely aspire to the play-style portrayed in the strips. The KODT letter columns are full of such sentiments, especially bashing "Sarah-type players" (the most functional player in the group) and griping that B.A. (the GM) had overstepped his authority in being mean to the guys. I think it's very odd that people love laughing at something, and then try to emulate it. But people are funny, I guess.

I think that many of those letters are either tongue in cheek, or they are an expression of GNS incompatibility gripes. The guys in the comic are Hardcore Gamist Powergamers. Sarah is definitely something else; probably even Narrativist as she tries to demonstrate her characters issues. She has little power to do so (unless BA is trying to needle the guys), however, so we'll never know for sure.

The point is that Sarah becomes iconic for players who want to be all "flakey" and not play to win according to the Powergamers view. That icon is something for them, perhaps, to rail at. I don't even want to get into how this all relates to actual play of Hackmaster.

So, no, I don't think that anyone's reading KODT and not getting that it's sarcasm. But I do think that it's interesting to consider why different people consider it a satire. For the Sim player, the constant use of blatant (no glorified; the players congratulate each other for good examples) Pawn Stance just jars as it's not playing the role at all. For the Narrativist Player, the lack of issues being dealt with is staggering. All they do is try to accumulate personal player glory.

Most interesting, however, is the Gamist who must see KODT as simply an exaggeration of normal play. Many Gamist would "kill the baby kobolds" if they weren't worth any points alive, but find it odd that they are worth experience points in Hackmaster. It's the over-the-top Gamist slant of Hackmaster that leads to the odd behavior. Players are encouraged by the system to do things that would make even a D&D player blush (rendering humanoids for meat - there's a way to save GPs). So for the Harcore Gamist Powergamer, it's just that the system is a parody moreso than the play. And the fact that BA is a weak GM in terms of being able to get the sort of play he wants. We'd tell BA that he needs to change systems.

Anyhow, beyond that much of the satire is simple social level stuff, like the guys not knowing how to behave around Sarah. As such, I hope that nobody is dumb enough to think that the book is a manual for the social aspects of gaming. Yeesh. Perish the thought. But that's where the satire begins. It's only because BA has no control that he can't force the system to do what he wants. It's only because the guys are threatened by a girl that they can't accommodate her play style. Etc.

As a satire I can see KODT as a sort of "how not to play RPGs". The anti-thesis of what we're discussing here. But how the lesson will be interpereted will be very much be based on previous play experience and preference. Because it's not designed to be anything but funny; so there's no targeted message.

Mike

[Andy Kitkowski]

I think that many of those letters are either tongue in cheek, or they are an expression of GNS incompatibility gripes...

Actually, this might be a tangent of the discussion at hand, warranting its own topic? It's all good, though. :)

Seriously, though, I don't know how much further this discussion could go, but I'm hoping that designers would pick up a little on this style, maybe include it in their own games.

As was mentioned earlier, the facial expressions, movements, etc all have meaning in themselves, and can convey a lot more meaning than simple flavor text, if done well.

An example: TRoS, which I recently purchased (see my Dune thread on that forum :) ), has a... VERY... unique combat system. I'm usually not into combat systems and all, but the resource management and other "G" aspects of it have me intrigued, and damned if I'm not going to finally wade through the entire combat section of a combat-heavy RPG until I understand it.

The thing is, it's still REALLY hard to visualize in my head without a couple rereadings.  I've been going over it the past 2 days (only for a little while, though), and it's been really slow going. If there were a comic/manga page like the above, showing how manuvers and dice were used in combat, and the dynamics involved in two people facing off, I think it could get into it a little easier.

Don't get me wrong, TRoS has an excellent combat system and all, but it's so different that I feel they should have used more "gimmicks" to make the system a little more understandable. A small comic strip showing how a PC and GM use the manuvers, including a sitation where the PC gets confused and needs the help of other PCs and GM as to what manuver would be best to use, etc, would have been so helpful.

Maybe that's a suggestion that an art-oriented person could use to develop extra source material for various games? I'd say, for most games out there, forget PC character generators and die-rollers, what I'd really like to see more of is examples of play!

-Andy

[Michael S. Miller]

Just in the interests in ludographic completeness, I pulled out my copy of R. Talsorian's Dream Park game last night, and it is full of helpful graphics. The first dozen pages or so are a comics-like welcome/introduction to the world of Dream Park. This includes drawings of characters "speaking" to the reader as well as drawings of the authors of the novels and Mike Pondsmith, the game designer.

Further in, each topic is broken down into its own page, with lots of handy little graphics to help out. While there aren't any pictures of how to set up around a table, it does go into things like how to measure movement using grids vs. with a ruler, all using little graphics. It all seems to have been done in the interest of making the game appealing for newbies.

[Andy Kitkowski]

Further in, each topic is broken down into its own page, with lots of handy little graphics to help out. While there aren't any pictures of how to set up around a table, it does go into things like how to measure movement using grids vs. with a ruler, all using little graphics. It all seems to have been done in the interest of making the game appealing for newbies.

That's right, that's right! I remember that now!  Man, it's been AGES since I flipped through Dream Park (unfortunately I sold it on eBay).  For such a low-key game it sure had a lot of art about how to play, and again, as you stated, it did seem aimed at newbie players.

Maybe it'd be reasonable to assume that, if you want total roleplaying newbies to be able to quickly understand your game, it'd be best to incude something helpful like this?

-Andy