Is the FLGS obsolete?

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I should like to avoid the repetition of certain cliches in this thread:

1. The notion that the physical retail store is the heart and sustenance of the hobby's existence. Despite individual, isolated instances for which this has been the case, I would argue the reverse if we think more generally. I think most retail game-stores have consistently screwed both themselves and role-playing as a hobby activity, throughout the past three decades.

2. The notions (a) that on-line sales are the same thing as discounting, and (b) on-line publisher sales are the same thing as on-line retailer sales. Many people confound these things continually.

Also, for those who haven't seen them, you may find the following threads interesting:

In Publishing:
Mainstream: a revision
Production value
Promotion
Active vs. passive entertainment
The Store
What would make a non-role-player buy your game?
The game that would sell to non-role-players
The importance of play
Accessible? To whom?

In Actual Play
Actual play in the stores
Mainstream media

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

The key phrase, which you excluded, states that the agressive marketers are in other industries, and they are keeping the population focused on their products which leaves less for our industry.  Stores who play the passive game, as most of them do, are just going to die.

Again, I don't see the problem.  If other industries...movies, console and PC games, etc are aggressively pursueing the gamer demographic (whatever that is) and convincing them to spend money on other forms of entertainment...how is this their fault?

Again, the problem is not that other industries are "hijaaking" gamers but that the gaming industry is too passive.

Sorry, but when you say "Stores who play the passive game, as most of them do, are just going to die." I say,  "and wouldn't that be their fault, for being passive".

I know of many.  The problem with e-retail is it is exceedingly passive from the most important part of grassroots marketing; creating awareness of new products outside the mainstream.

But do game stores really do a good job of this either?  I walk into a game store I used to see wall o'Pinnacle, Wall o'AEG, and wall o'WhiteWolf, and Display Case o'Magic & Pokemon.  Now I walk into a game store and I see Wall o'd20, Wall o'Whitewolf, Discount Wall o'Pinnacle and AEG, and Display Case o' YuGiOh.  I don't see the non-big-name games being pushed in any sort of grassroots way.

Maybe I haven't seen enough game stores, but most of the ones I've been to or heard about may carry a copy or two of "other stuff" but few bother to reorder them in any quantity.  Even fewer take an active roll in actually trying to promote those games and get their customers to buy and play them.  Sure they may put a copy on the shelf, but are they really pushing them?  If not, than how is that better than e-tailers?  Note:  I know a few who are and do, yes.  But in the main?  Not in my experience.

And far more important than either of these is trying to get NON gamers to start in the hobby...and the number of game stores that actually go out of their way to do that is very small.  I'd say the local Borders does a better job of appealing to non gamers than any of the game stores I know of.  Why?  Simply by way of offering game books in a widely trafficked retail location that isn't associated with the normal hobby turn-offs.

When RoS was picked up by stores, people weren't even aware that Jake existed.  They saw the cover on store shelves, they picked up the book and glanced through, they discussed it with some other people in the store.  This doesn't happen online.

I couldn't disagree more with this last sentence.  I am hardly unique in doing ALL of my game shopping online.  A good website with art, detailed descriptions of play, downloadable chapter samples, and other assorted bells and whistles will sell a book better than a copy sitting on a shelf in a game store.  RPG discussion forums continue to proliferate, and through them word of mouth spreads across continents, not just across a few dozen local store customers.  

Now at the moment, I'd agree that only a fraction of the gaming populace is active on line and is willing to browse online, but I'd say that fraction is an increasing one.  It wasn't that long ago that venues like the Origins Auction was the best place to find OOP older titles and gaming collectables...now it is a ghost of its former self and even the old grognards are active E-bay users.  The same will happen in RPGs.  Online shopping will never replace brick and mortar shopping the way the hype used to suggest.  But it is a viable and growing distribution channel.  Wal Mart doesn't ignore it.  Borders doesn't ignore it.  QVC doesn't ignore it.  They use it as a great augmenter of their traditional business, and acknowledge the need to compete with the lower cost e-only retailers.

Retail gamestores that offer a simultaneous on-line shop is a great thing.  They're not being hurt by online shopping, they're participating and benefiting from it.  The ones being hurt are the ones that refuse to do it...or lack the drive to make it work.  

Gamers are, truthfully, extremely cheap by nature.

Not true.  The supposed "gamer demographic" of starving college student, yes.  But the hordes of Warhammer players who drop 100s of mom and dad's dollars on figs?  The well heeled old grognards who subscribe to gaming company programs where they buy EVERY SINGLE $50-$100+ wargaming title the company produces?  Guys like me who had to make my own games and scenarios as a child cuz I couldn't afford to buy them, who now sink a noticeable fraction of my disposable income into the hobby?

No.  If RPG gamers are cheap...its because RPGs have been targeting the wrong customers. IMO.  

They buy online both for convnience and for the cheapest game product.  Since an online store doesn't have the community obligations (and costs involved), they are skimming sales from real stores without any potential market growth.  Online stores make real stores less profitable, and has put real stores out of business (not dissimilar to the store you know who went e-retail only).

Sorry, I've heard that story before at the dawn of the e-tailing boom.  I don't buy it at all.  E-tail is just another distribution channel...just like catalog shopping, TV shopping channels. or Super Stores.  Its no better, worse, or more damaging than any other method of getting product into the hands of customers.  Competetive businesses adapt, non competetive business don't.

No "real store" has ever gone out of business *because* of e-tailing.  Ever.   They went out of business because they had an unsustainable business model that collapsed.  The e-tailer was just the catalyst to finish a process that was already underway.  If it wasn't the e-tailer that had done it, it would have been the WOTC Store opening down the block, or the expanded game selection at the local Borders, or a real estate boom that raised the rent on their store...  In other words, a poorly run business is a poorly run business, regardless of what the actual "final straw" was that broke them.

But this doesn't answer my question.  I asked how is it damaging to the hobby.  You answered how you think its damaging to the retail store.  That seems to have a built in assumption that Retail Store = Hobby...or at least their fates are inseperably tied.   I don't buy that at all.

This hobby requires only three things.  Publishers to manufacture games, customers to buy them, and a means of getting the product to those customers.  Publishers have, are, and will continue to come and go.  Customers have, are, and will continue to come and go.  There is absolutely no reason to believe that the distribution channel must be carved in stone.  Distribution methods can come and go also, and the hobby will live on.


But more than just living on...why has the hobby stagnated?
I don't mean creatively stagnated...I mean financially.  The hobby has existed at roughly the same size it is today for decades.  Other hobbies have boomed.  Why not this one?

IMO Gaming will never grow and prosper as long as its considered by the mainstream public to be a hobby for geeks.  And the vast majority of game stores I've seen do more to promote that image than break it (not all...most).

PC gaming gets hip celebrities to attend E3 and other industry functions.  We get wookies and fat men dressed like Sailor Moon.  There are specials on TV showing Boy Band heart throbs playing the X-Box.  Hell, even Magic has had mainstream exposure with televised tournaments on ESPN.  Computer gaming used to be a hobby for geeks right along side RPGs.   Now it is slick and packaged and visible to the mainstream.  You can see the results of this in the explosion of profitability in the electronic gaming industry.  Where is roleplaying?

The original topic to this thread was is the FLGS being rendered obsolete?  

IMO there are two types of FLGS.  The type that are bright, open, professional and can proudly be located in the midst of middle america strip malls, and upscale shopping centers.  Places that look and function like Hobby Town USA in terms of layout and accessibility to the general public.  Are those obsolete?  No.  Those are the future of the hobby along with game sections in WalMarts and Borders, and large online suppliers like Amazon and other e-tailers.  Those stand a better chance of getting a non gamer who just happens to be browsing around to take a look, than any number of gaming tables in some hole in the wall dive ever has.

But look at what games are located in those stores...Hobby Town USA has a TON of warhammer, and a better selection of German Imports than many actual GameStores do.  Roleplaying?  Limited.  Borders...White Wolf and a smattering of other titles.  Why?  Because IMO RPG companies are still focused on getting RPG titles into "gaming stores", only the big name companies are trying to get product placed in more mainstream (i.e. general public mainstream) venues.  Bah...if that doesn't change RPGs will lose to minis and clix guarenteed.

The other type of game store...the ones populated by geeks and attractive only to fellow geeks.  Yeah, those are obsolete.  I owe nothing to help support them because they do nothing to support the hobby.  They support the small little clique of regular customers they have, and that's fine.  If they can continue to operate and cater to those customers as they have in the past more power to them.  But they DON'T bring new people into the hobby, they DON'T do a better job pushing non-big-name RPG titles than other venues, and they DON'T represent the future of gaming.  IMO.


Edited:  to tone down the inadvertant negative tone that crept in while writing.

[HinterWelt]

Ron-
Sorry, I just thought my comments were topical. Obviously, certain laws of nature have been defined here that I was unaware of. I disagree with some of the opinions of this forum based on my real life experience. I am not trying to claim my experience as the sum of the universe just offering it as a part of the total. I will refrain from doing so in the future.

For my part, I apologize if I strayed.

Bill
HinterWelt Enterprises
The Next Level in RPGs
William E. Corrie III
www.hinterwelt.com   
http://www.hinterwelt.com/chargen/

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Bill,

No apologies necessary. Moderation at the Forge works differently from a lot of places and it's very straightforward. In this case, my post was addressed to everyone, and that means that everyone (you, everyone, etc) should merely extract from it anything they think applies, and take it from there.

If your post was any sort of flagrant problem, I'd have singled it out (I'm like that), so you have nothing to worry about, or as I say, to apologize for. Your perspective is welcome.

Best,
Ron

[Tundra]

My last thoughts before I leave the thread (I simply don't have the time, and frankly, I don't get paid to share my info) ;-) so Ron doesn't uninvite me to visit him and Cecelia....

We definately come from different POVs, Ralph. I don't know if it's intended or not, but you seem to have some hostility towards b&ms, and there's nothing I can do with that.

Online stores do *not*, repeat *not* noticably increase the market.  Few non-gamers are influenced by online stores unless they are following a licensed product trail.

You are correct that the old FLGS is obsolete and that (as Bill pointed out) the successful stores have become entertainment locations. This includes online as well as offline support. If they are going to increase their market share, as well as the number of gamers, they have to.  Most won't, and Darwinism wins again.

Tundra still will not sell to online retailers.  B&m stores that have online sales are not online retailers, they simply have several sales outlets.  What we avoid are online *only* retailers.

So, if you have a FLGS, talk to them about what works and what doesn't.  If you have an interest, try to find ways to help energize them for the work ahead, give them ideas and inspiration.  If it works, then you should try politics ;-)

ttfn - woody

[Valamir]

We definately come from different POVs, Ralph. I don't know if it's intended or not, but you seem to have some hostility towards b&ms, and there's nothing I can do with that.

Not hostility towards retailers, no.  Hostility perhaps (or more likely strident disagreement) with the idea that B&Ms are the heart and soul of the hobby, without them the hobby will collapse (or at least suffer profoundly) and that therefor we should make a special effort to keep B&M's viable.

That I definitely have a problem with, because I think it is not only completely not true, but also works against moving the hobby to a more mainstream audience.

Online stores do *not*, repeat *not* noticably increase the market.  Few non-gamers are influenced by online stores unless they are following a licensed product trail.

I agree.  And if you substituted "B&M game stores" for Online stores in the above, it would be equally true.  B&M game stores do not noticeably increase the market.  Many of the stores I would argue actively decrease the market simply by being the sorts of place no non gamer would ever go.  Similarly few (not none...few) non-gamers are influenced by a B&M game store unless they are being invited by a gamer friend who's trying to introduce them to the hobby.

You are correct that the old FLGS is obsolete and that (as Bill pointed out) the successful stores have become entertainment locations. This includes online as well as offline support. If they are going to increase their market share, as well as the number of gamers, they have to.  Most won't, and Darwinism wins again.

We are certainly in agreement on this.  I would argue, however, that the "successful stores" as you characterize them by way of them being successful and offering something that e-only retailers don't are in no danger and are in no way damaged by e retailers.  If they are, then I submit they are not truly successful, because they haven't found a way to compete effectively against this channel.

Tundra still will not sell to online retailers.  B&m stores that have online sales are not online retailers, they simply have several sales outlets.  What we avoid are online *only* retailers.

That is, of course, completely your perogative.  Yours and your clients willingness to have this distribution channel denied to them.

This stance would make more sense to me if it were targeted specifically against deep discounters and e-tailers engageing in "damaging" practices rather than all online retailers period  (I doubt we'd get very far discussing the definition of a damaging practice)

So, if you have a FLGS, talk to them about what works and what doesn't.  If you have an interest, try to find ways to help energize them for the work ahead, give them ideas and inspiration.  If it works, then you should try politics ;-)

Heh :-)

[Ryan Wynne]

I was thinking of starting a game store when i graduated from business school, but now I'm starting to wonder whether the FLGS we grew up with has been rendered obsolete. Columbia Games' recent announcement that they are going to direct sales only indicates some companies seem to think so. My own experience with the retail chain has been anything but encouraging as a publisher as well.

 Well I can understand why they would go this route.  The distributors and the game stores take a large chunk out of the money again.  I don't have the numbers but I bet the one (if not both) the disbutors and game stores may get a bigger cut of the pie then the game store that sells the game (and had nothing to do with the creation).  I am not against FLGS's but that is just my POV on the subject and can understand why they would go this route.  

   If they go this route they make more money and can pay their writers better (lord knows the pay for designing rpgs cant get much worse).

[Ryan Wynne]

Hello,

I should like to avoid the repetition of certain cliches in this thread:

1. The notion that the physical retail store is the heart and sustenance of the hobby's existence. Despite individual, isolated instances for which this has been the case, I would argue the reverse if we think more generally. I think most retail game-stores have consistently screwed both themselves and role-playing as a hobby activity, throughout the past three decades.

Best,
Ron

 I agree.  I played rpgs and found people to game with when I started with rpgs and never stepped foot in a FLGS.  I actually ordered my first rpg (Battletech Boxed set 2nd Edition 1988) from a Waldenbooks.

  It was years before I stepped foot into a FLGS and was able to play games,  buy games and find players.

[Emmett]

I have sadly seen nearly all the good B&Ms except one or two close up in myneck of the woods. It makes me very very sad. . .

[b_bankhead]

As I look at what's going on the shops, I have come to believe while the FLGS will be around for a good while, the question is will there be rpgs there?

 The gaming marketplace has shown that it can spawn games whose recruitment model allows them to surpass the populaion and sales level rp rpg's very quickly. Already we have seen Warhammer,collectible miniatures and cards. Who can doubt designers will continue to produce new game categories. If these categories proliferate the competition for existing store space will grow more acute.

 The real worry for those interested in preserving the instore rpg culture is that more and more games shops will actually start to analyse the opportunity cost of spending money to put a roof over the saturday night game groups whose spending rate is so relatively low.  There is scarcely a game shop in existence that is truly dependent on rpgs. Many could survive without them, particularly if the shelf space was taken up by a more profitable new category.

At least one post has mentioned a game shop that has no rpg gaming. In my area at least two of the best known game shops have achieved that state essentially defacto if not by fiat as the owners make no efforts to promote even their shrinking rpg invnetory. I believe this trend may continue as rpgs come to be viewed as a 'loser' category.