The Dancey Ratio and the Strange Case of the Missing Gamers

[szilard]

Ummm...

This seems like an overreaction.

Have you tried looking at various gamer registries? Various game companies and websites have them.

In about 30 seconds, I did a search for Columbus, Ohio on White Wolf's game finder and came up with 203 matches with e-mail addresses. You can probably find more with a little work...

Stuart

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Oh, I dunno about that face-to-face despair ...

A lot of people have experienced something of a personal Renaissance in this regard through interactions on the Forge, whether due to meeting people directly or by trying new strategies for finding them.

Best,
Ron

[Jason Lee]

Well, I've always approached finding new gamers the mormon way.  Convert them.  Or rather, introduce the idea to friends who aren't gamers.

Though, realistically, I spend more energy thinking of nice ways to say 'no, you cannot play in our group we are full.'

[Clinton R. Nixon]

Warning: this post is filled with supposition, without facts to back it up. In addition, it makes several broad statements about people who play role-playing games, which should be taken in about the same way Greg Stafford tells you to read descriptions of Gloranthan cultures: it holds true for about 80% of the population, with the rest being different, but in the context of the culture as a whole.

Bryan, the points I want to pull out of your last post are this:
- Role-playing groups are very "cocooned" compared to CCG or "clicky-game" gamers.
- Current methods of finding role-playing gamers aren't working, at least for you.
- If Dancey's numbers are correct, RPGers don't spend much money on their hobby.

Role-playing gamers are cocooned, by choice. This morning, on the Forge, I saw someone say that their wife had a problem with them playing role-playing games. Role-players don't talk about their hobby among people they don't play with, and accept the disdain of those who know. In fact, I'd go so far as to say they invite the disdain.

What does this have to do with you not being able to find gamers?

Simply, being a nice guy and hoping to find gamers will not work. Even trolling in game stores won't: have you ever tried to talk to another customer in a game store? Usually, their head is down and lips are shut, and communication is nigh impossible with 'em. Why? I'll tell you my opinion: we have a mass dysfunction that we keep infecting new role-players with, the dysfunction of shame.

This is exactly why groups get cocooned - four or five people play with the same four or five people they've always played with, afraid to talk to new people because of the shame, and afraid to leave their group because they won't find another. These people don't necessarily have to fit the "I-look-just-like-Gygax" gamer stereotype, either: you'll find these groups matched by social skills, socio-economic level, industry, and other interests, resulting in the information technology group, the amateur-theatre group, the Goth group, the young executive group, and the racially-homogenous group.

Now that we've tackled why they're cocooned: how do you un-cocoon? How do you find these guys?

At first, I wanted to say, "Be public about your hobby." Read Hero Wars on a bus. When people at work ask about your weekend, tell them about your real weekend, where you played D&D or whatever. That's certainly still fine advice: it's how I found out everyone I work with either games or has gamed.

Better advice, though: be useful to the community. The role-playing community is made up of people that feed from it and do not contribute back. These are people who go to "find-a-gamer" sites like Access Denied and look for gamers in their area and don't enter their own information, people who go to the game store and look on the bulletin board for a group and don't put up an invitation, among other things.

Two examples of finding gamers through contributing, both involving my favorite test subject, me:

- Alan Barclay, a Seattle gamer, started what he calls "Monday Indie Game night" here in Seattle. (It's now metamorphed into "Monday Game night," as we play all sorts of RPGs.) He leveraged an existing network - a highly-dysfunctional e-mailing list for Seattle gamers - to advertise the game night, but organized it and runs it weekly. New people show up all the time, and we find more RPGers each week, all getting to play with new people weekly and interact on a real, social level. I'm involved in this because I run at least two games a month here, but the real work was all Alan.
- Me and the Forge. I am your average gamer. I have piss-poor social skills, usually. I am self-destructive, a procrastinator, and introverted. Yet, there's a large network of people who like me, are gamers, and that I play with. Why? I made myself useful. I took a site that needed help to stay up, and not only kept it going, but helped build it into a huge place for gamers to meet and talk. Therefore, people know my name and know I'm a gamer. I could travel to most metropolitan cities and game that night. In my own community, I've met all the people I play with through here or Monday Game Night. Strangely, there's no one here from New Orleans, where I am moving, so in order to make myself useful, I've started NAGA, the Nawlins Gaming Association, in order to provide a forum for the gamers I know are there and are separated from the major networks.

Lastly, to tackle the money issue: those same groups that have been together for 5-25 years are playing the same game because of their isolation. Not to pick on anyone - and I swear I'm not - but ask M.J. Young. He's run successful AD&D 1st edition campaigns for years, not having to buy any more supplements for the game, because his group is fairly cohesive and he likes the game. (Tell me if I'm misrepresenting something, M.J.)

[Mike Holmes]

Over-reaction, I'd agree. I mean, a moment ago you were content to think that only X number existed, Dancey was wrong, and you were willing to find them. Now that the number has increased potentially tenfold, it's harder to find players? How's there any logic behind that. Just because you realize that there are a lot of gamers who don't advertise doesn't mean that suddenly all the gamers that you've targeted previously have gone away.

Anyhow. This shouldn't be a surprise. We said the exact same thing in the thread about the problems with marketing in game stores. I think you just didn't get the magnitude of the implication then. What we ought to do is try to figure out how to market to the stay at home player.

And they're not so insulated as you seem to think. I mean while I never played outside my own small circle of friends, I certainly went to game stores, and read gaming periodicals, and learned about stuff online. I just never used these things as a source of play. And I think I'm pretty typical that way.

So the gamer is more informed than I think most would make them out to be. But it's like trying to sell a new set of steak knives to the guy watching the commercial at home when he's already got steak knives. Sure you might have better knives, but what's wrong with the one's he's got? While Ralph wants to think that gamers are blissfully unaware of the existence of other games, I'd have to disagree. They know other games exist. They just don't care. It's hard to penetrate this person's lack of percieved need. Do you buy the steak knives when you see them on TV? Even if yours aren't the perfect steak knives you've always wanted?

But it's not impossible. You can be proactive. How? Well, there are the game stores. These two groups are not mutually exclusive. So if you can hook a new player at a game store with a game, maybe he'll take it home.

And, hey, if I'd ever been caught in a store by someone offering to play an RPG demo on the spot, I'da played it. But you know what? It's never happened to me. I've actually never seen one other than RPG.NET's game day, whcih I traveled to specifically.

That's right in 25 years of regularly visiting FLGS's I've not once seen an RPG demo "accidentally", much less played in one. I'm sure they've run them, but if there was info on it, I wasn't looking for it. So there's another layer of impenetrability. But RPG.Net of all sources was the one thing that brought me to a demo. So it can be done, you just have to make significant events of things.

Conventions are very successful, for example. I'm betting that if you go run your game at a convention that you can find some players there (he said tongue in cheek). I don't know how many demo's of indie games we ran last year at GenCon, but it was a titanic number. So there are ways to sell.

Now, if you're thinking that you can beat the D&D stranglehold on the industry with these tactics you're sorely mistaken. As Mr. Skarka points out (I checked this time), unless you have a multi-million dollar advertising budget you don't even have a chance. But that is not, nor has it ever been, the Indie goal. The indie goal is to sell to the small number of people who have a desire to pley something else, and are looking, and to sell to people who've never played RPGs before but are willing.

So you want more players? Create them. Do you have friends who don't play? Have you asked them if they'd like to try? You want to be proactive? Then do your small part to make gamers from the people who aren't curently. If they start with something other than D&D, then they'll never become part of the D&D entrenched crowd.

The hopelessness just isn't warranted.

Mike

{edited to note the cross-post with Clinton}

[b_bankhead]

Over-reaction, I'd agree. I mean, a moment ago you were content to think that only X number existed, Dancey was wrong, and you were willing to find them. Now that the number has increased potentially tenfold, it's harder to find players? How's there any logic behind that

 Well maybe my opinion has been changed by the debate?  That CAN happen you know, even on the internet....

[Mike Holmes]

Well maybe my opinion has been changed by the debate?  That CAN happen you know, even on the internet....

Remarkable as that may be, that wasn't anyone's intention. They were trying to convince you that there are more gamers out there than you thought. And your conclusion is that, therefore, you'll never be able to find any of them.

Strange logic.

Mike

[b_bankhead]

Well maybe my opinion has been changed by the debate?  That CAN happen you know, even on the internet....

Remarkable as that may be, that wasn't anyone's intention. They were trying to convince you that there are more gamers out there than you thought. And your conclusion is that, therefore, you'll never be able to find any of them.

 But what everyone keeps telling me is that these 'Islands' dont communicate about gaming with anyone else, don't purchase from public, outlets, aren't interested in new games and aren't interested in gaming with anybody but their small pool of immediate friends.  Doesn't sound like a particularly inviting field to try to cultivate you know?   It really makes me start to wish I could like  MtG you know? Or be satisfied with online gaming because it seems to be something I can actually DO....

[b_bankhead]

Well maybe my opinion has been changed by the debate?  That CAN happen you know, even on the internet....

Remarkable as that may be, that wasn't anyone's intention. They were trying to convince you that there are more gamers out there than you thought. And your conclusion is that, therefore, you'll never be able to find any of them.

 But what everyone keeps telling me is that these 'Islands' dont communicate about gaming with anyone else, don't purchase from public, outlets, aren't interested in new games and aren't interested in gaming with anybody but their small pool of immediate friends.  Doesn't sound like a particularly inviting field to try to cultivate you know?   It really makes me start to wish I could like  MtG you know? Or be satisfied with online gaming because it seems to be something I can actually DO....

[b_bankhead]

Anyhow. This shouldn't be a surprise. We said the exact same thing in the thread about the problems with marketing in game stores. I think you just didn't get the magnitude of the implication then. What we ought to do is try to figure out how to market to the stay at home player.

So you want more players? Create them. Do you have friends who don't play? Have you asked them if they'd like to try? You want to be proactive? Then do your small part to make gamers from the people who aren't curently. If they start with something other than D&D, then they'll never become part of the D&D entrenched crowd.

The hopelessness just isn't warranted.

Mike

{edited to note the cross-post with Clinton}

My friends know about my rpgs and aren't interested. None of my present friends are from my old (and large) gaming crowd.

It wasn't until I ran the number that i realized what you were talking about. At a 7% profit margin someone who wants an income of $25,000 per year needs a customer base of 8922 gamers spending 77 cent a week to make  a living off rpgs. No wonder game shops go out of business or move in the card displays.  My feeling that game shops go out of business providing gaming space for rpg gamers has become solidified by this figure. I know for a fact a person with an acute card jones can spend 20-30 times that weekly for a year or more.

[Balbinus]

Hi,

This post of Brian's has been heavily discussed on rpg.net at http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?s=0cb136a0ff2e2a544a429928c58ad9c3&threadid=48789&perpage=20&pagenumber=1

where many people have advanced reasons why gamers might not be visible (similar to those mentioned here) and many others have suggested concrete ways in which Brian might find gamers in his area, in one instance even providing a link to a club active in his area (much as SLizard has attempted here).

Those interested in the debate may also find that thread useful.

[Cyberhawk]

It wasn't until I ran the number that i realized what you were talking about. At a 7% profit margin someone who wants an income of $25,000 per year needs a customer base of 8922 gamers spending 77 cent a week to make  a living off rpgs. No wonder game shops go out of business or move in the card displays.  My feeling that game shops go out of business providing gaming space for rpg gamers has become solidified by this figure. I know for a fact a person with an acute card jones can spend 20-30 times that weekly for a year or more.

The quote above got me thinking about Gaming shops and rpg player spending habits.  This is purely my experience, but I can't think of any RPG-only shops.  Every single one that I've seen has at least one other supplemental to the RPG books, wether it is Miniatures / model kits /comics/books (paperbacks) or what-not.
Even the closest to a pure gaming shop, those that were Wargame/RPG shops expanded into card games as soon as they came out with little change in store 'feel' or customers (other than younger ones for some of the CCGs).

The problem is that RPG books are, generally, expensive and not something that must be purchased regularly.  
CCGs, comics, paperbacks and other items are relatively inexpensive and are usually designed to be purchased often.  
(basically it's easy to buy a $3.95 booster pack every time you're in the store than to buy a new $23.95 supplement on a regulary basis)

I guess I'm just saying that the 77 cents a week figure seems (to me) a result of the product rather than the consumer.  

Just my 2 cents...
Chris

[clehrich]

A few thoughts occur to me about these many intertwined issues.

1. The numbers strike me as reasonable, if you factor in Ron's very essential group: high school gamers.  In my very, very small high school, there was once a little D&D tournament, and suddenly it turned out that some 10% of the male population of the school gamed, or were will willing to join in as long as it looked like fun (and had actually played at least a little bit at some point).  At college, the numbers dropped through the floor.

2. Isolation and insularity are clearly major factors, and I think the big point (as Clinton mentioned) is social pressure.  C'mon, admit it: RPGs are seen as a geek thing, done primarily by pimply science guys who would stop instantly if they had anything better to do on a weekend night, and somebody to do it with and to.  If you admit to being a gamer, you take a risk; in some venues, this risk is perceived as severe (as in, likely to get you fired or at least not promoted, likely to get you ostracized, etc.).  We haven't reached the stage of doing Gamer Pride marches yet.  Have you ever noticed how many homosexuals there are supposed to be, as opposed to how many are very obvious and out just walking down the street?  Off by at least an order of magnitude, right?  We need Game-dar!  :)

3. The correlation I see (and I have no hard numbers here) between gamers and Neo-Paganism, especially when it comes to female gamers, seems sufficiently strong that you're getting a parallel effect about "outing" going on.  You don't "out" witches if you want to remain their friends; you don't "out" gamers either.  Lots of gamers I know think the mainstream considers gaming a cult phenomenon, and while they may be overreacting, some ugly things have happened, after all.

4. I do think that most game groups reach a critical mass, and then don't look for new players.  When they need a new player, which is relatively rare, they ask around among their immediate friends, and half the time hope to drag in somebody's partner.  If people aren't looking, you can't find them.

5. Clinton has given by far the best advice around: be noticed, be helpful, make a name for yourself.  And have no shame whatever.  Carry RPG books around with you -- preferably very recognizable ones.

6. I also think it is entirely possible that Columbus is NOT average demographics for RPGs, but I doubt that it's off by all that much.

7. I would really like to know where this estimate came from; can somebody point me to a link or whatever?  I just really wonder how anybody came up with an estimate for a group that doesn't communicate with others and mostly doesn't buy anything.  Is this supposed to be a serious estimate?  How large are the error bars -- an order of magnitude?