Destined: Mechanic/Difficulty issue

[szilard]

I've been struggling with some underlying issues in my development of Destined lately.

Here is a brief mechanics recap/update:

Each character has two main attributes: Determination and Destiny
These are limiting of each other and must add to (roughly - there are some exceptions, but that's not a central issue) 10.

Each character also has Qualities which represent anything distinctive about their character. Qualities can be flat (with no bonus - this represents a typical level of skill or ability or whatnot) or rated +1 to +3. Characters also have reserves of Plot Points that can be used (more effectively when Qualities are relevant) to influence success, often at some cost. (Though Qualities and Plot Points aren't directly relevant to my present point...)

Players choose whether they wish to use Determination or Destiny to overcome obstacles/resolve conflicts. Using Determination represents using skill, cunning, or sheer force of will to overcome the obstacle. Using Destiny represents relying on fate or luck to take you past the obstacle. The choice made will have bearing on both how the obstacle is overcome and how it is narrated in game (the player has more narration rights when using Determination).

NPCs and obstacles in the game also have Determination (and, possibly - this is the issue - Destiny) scores. When a PC uses Determination to resolve a conflict, it is opposed to the Determination of the conflict. Similarly (perhaps) with Destiny.

Determination is - for NPCs - largely equivalent to the Determination score of PCs. For obstacles, it is a measure of difficulty.

My problem is with Destiny. This tears two ways: on the one hand, it seems like those conflicts more central to the PC's Destiny are just the ones which should be more easily overcome in a conflict in which the PC relies on Destiny. On the other hand, if those conflicts have their own Destiny scores, they would be the higher ones. Although... perhaps Destiny can only assist you in overcoming the minor obstacles that stand in your way... and once you come to face the major conflict you are destined to face, you are on your own (via Determination... unless you feel really lucky).

My question is pretty simple (I hope). Which of these makes more sense? I'm personally leaning strongly toward the second, but I think I need someone to tell me whether or not I'm crazy for doing so.

Stuart

[Walt Freitag]

Have you considered always rolling against the opposite? As in, your destiny against my determination or vice versa?

- Walt

[Matt Snyder]

Hey Stuart!

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking, only because your second to last paragraph confuses me a bit. Can you clarify a bit? Specically, I don't understand:

if those conflicts have their own Destiny scores, they would be the higher ones.

Which is "they" and what do you mean by "higher ones"?

In the meantime, here's some of my thoughts (bear with me, I'm likely blubbering on about the obvious).

You've assigned two attributes to characters.

First, we have Determination, which I get. It's that drive that makes a character do what he wants to do. "Oomph" if you will. Clearly, different characters will have different levels of drive and Determination.

Destiny, on the other hand, is less clear to me, though I realize that it (and it's contrast against Determination) is central to the game. It's less clear because when I think about Destiny, I think about some disembodied force like fate or luck, as you describe. So, I can't as easily "get" Destiny as a characteristic. That's because one's Luck, by definition, isn't defined by one's character or psychology, as determination is. It's defined by chance, which exists outside the character and applies to ALL characters/entities in fickle ways.

In other words, Destiny isn't something one does, but rather something one happens upon or experiences. Determination, on the other hand, is something one does. It's a choice to go in guns blazin' or not.

So, when you ask about obstacles defined by Destiny, I have a hard time not "envisioning" three entities:  the character, the non-player character and the third party, which is destiny/luck/fate/etc. Which leads me to the notion of -- why not utilize the "third party" more overtly, rather than have two characters with dueling destinies.

For example, you could create a mechanic where the two characters bid for Destiny's fickle favor. In effect, I think that's what you're already doing. I just mean a mechanical shift that would emphasize some abstract "third party." So, players could bid for Destiny's favor, and the winner gets all of the "pot" as a prize, and his own success in the conflict.

Ok, I've about run out of steam here, and I'm not sure I'm making sense. Maybe if you clarify my questions above I can stop blubbering.

[szilard]

Walt,

I think i may have oversimplified a bit. It is possible to roll against the opposite in some cases. For instance, if two PCs have a conflict, they can each choose how they will attempt to resolve it.

Matt,

In answer to your questions:

if those conflicts have their own Destiny scores, they would be the higher ones.

Which is "they" and what do you mean by "higher ones"?

Uhhh... yeah. Let me parse that. Those obstacles more central to a character's Destiny would have higher Destiny scores than those irrelevant to it.

Part of the problem here, is that I want characters to be able to rely on Destiny when they need to overcome minor obstacles that stand in the way of them realizing their own destiny. I also DON'T want them to be able to rely on Destiny to accomplish things contrary to their own destiny. Nor do I want them to rely on Destiny at truly climactic moments when they are about to realize a part of their destiny. I think that it is this combination of goals that has me boggled.

On Destiny in general:

When I use Destiny it is in the sense of "The character has a great Destiny." It is something inherent to the character, or at least inextricably linked to the character. Think of Harry Potter, for example.

I more or less agree with your contrast insofar as you say:

Destiny isn't something one does, but rather something one happens upon or experiences. Determination, on the other hand, is something one does. It's a choice to go in guns blazin' or not.

Where I would differ is that I would say, "Destiny isn't something one does, but rather something one will happen upon or experience." There is a level of certainty there that, I think, makes it less appropriate to treat it like beseeching an embodiment of fate. The characters really do have Destinies. The game is about how those Destinies are resolved.

Stuart

[Jeph]

I suggest that conflicts have their own Destiny and, like that of characters, Dest+Detr=10. In addition, I reccomend that Determination of objects always be at least 5.

You said that Destiny did not grant the character the same narration rights as Determination (I take it that Destined is a narrativist game). I suggest you build off of this: Determination is less likely to let you succeed (because it is never the lower of an object's scores), but grants you an overall higher controll over your fate. Destiny, on the other hand, can carry you through anything--but not in the way you choose.

So, for instance, with Destiny, you may only start the narration of your success with a brief phrase. When Determination is used, you may narrate your entire success story.

Did that make any sense..?

[Hunter Logan]

Stuart,

I think I understand what you're trying to do, but I wouldn't do it that way. Certainly use Determination for the character's efforts to get stuff done. It's the Destiny part that needs work. Destiny infers its use is for something the character was made to do. So, this is what I would do: Determination is used for standard die rolls, and using it is free. The player gets more narration with better die results.

Destiny is not free or unlimited. Destiny costs a point every time it's used, but its value is always 10 - and the character gets guaranteed narration with it. One might even determine what the character is Destined to do during character creation, thus governing appropriate and inappropriate use of Destiny, but that's a nuance you can wrestle with later.

So, a character has Determination 6, Destiny 4. He rolls based on 6 in all normal actions. That's his determination. On rolls where he's Destined to do something, he rolls based on 10, but every time he does that, his Destiny attribute decreases by 1. For those ultra-important moments, a player could burn more Destiny, say up to 3 points and maybe get a base of 20 for the trouble.

I would limit Destiny for NPCs. First, only important NPCs, get any Destiny. Then, the important NPCs could be limited to using 1 Destiny per die roll and maybe 3 such die rolls per encounter. Even then, maybe only let them use the Destiny if it's appropriate. After all, PCs are supposed to be special.

It would be easy for Destined NPCs to overwhelm the PCs by weight of great die rolls. That's not the intent, I'm sure. Of course, their overall competence will be determined by their Determination. That, or use an all-unopposed system where NPCs are rated for difficulty and competence by their target numbers. Powerful NPCs/obstacles are hard to budge without great dice and/or Destiny; lesser NPCs/obstacles are easier to overcome.

Finally, I would implement a system of rewards so that the player has access to some sort of points resource for rebuilding Destiny, increasing Determination, and building those Qualities.

Edit: I edited everything. Hope it helps and it's comprehensible..

[Hunter Logan]

Okay. I realize no one responded yet, but I re-read my previous post and realized there are some truck-sized holes in what I wrote. I should have thought it through more before posting, and now the editing time limit has elapsed. So, I will add just a little bit more text to this thread.

Stuart has a desire for a game with two attributes. Extreme Vengeance also has two attributes: Guts and Conicidence. Guts are the primary means for overcoming obstacles in the game, and they go up during play, eventually empowering the protagonists to defeat the antagonists at the end of the adventure. Coincidence is a narration power that allows the player to add things to the game or set up things that just sort of happen, as in "What a conicidence!" As coincidence is used, it decreases.

Stuart wants to use Determination and Destiny. This sounds a bit grimmer in tone than Extreme Vengeance. I think my initial assessment stands. Determination is the regular die roll and it stays the same during play. Using Determination only gives the player the right to declare the intended action. What actually happens is up to the GM. Also, Determination does not allow the player to make any changes to the situation in or set up of the game world. Destiny, on the other hand, gives the player full rights for narration of the situation, the intended actions, and the outcome. The GM may retain the right to modify or temper the narration using controls similar to those found in Kill Puppies for Satan.

Of course, NPCs don't necessarily need Destiny, because the GM has all the narration rights anyone could want. To that end, an unopposed resolution method with the GM assigning higher target numbers to the more important NPCs would work just fine. Maybe that would also indicate a need for increasing Determination; I don't know. OTOH, some GMs like to hand NPCs off to other players. Those NPCs become sort of part-time PCs. In that case, the playuer controlling the NPC could use a Destiny attribute, and that player could spend that Destiny just as he could spend Destiny for his own character.

Well, that's all I can really say about it. Stuart, you didn;t really supply that much info about your game. I just happen to like the idea of Destiny in games and wish you much success with your design. Whatever you decide, I'd like to see your game when it's done.

[szilard]

Hunter,

I need to give this some thought before I respond. There are more posts about Destined in this forum. If you are interested, you should be able to find them easily via a search. Alternately, you can check out my LiveJournal.

I'm not familiar with Extreme Vengeance. Is it worth looking at?

Stuart

[Hunter Logan]

Stuart,

Sounds good. I will poke around for more info. I think Extreme Vengeance is worth the effort. Players take the roles of movie action heroes in movies, and the presentation shows great enthusiasm for the material.