New Game The Duellists: Endgame

[JW Carroll]

Hello all.

I've been lurking about here for about a week now and designing amateur games for a long time and I've finally worked up the nerve to throw my hat into the professional arena with a little RPG I'm calling Duellists: Endgame. The current plan is to publish the game in 2 or 3 years if it looks like it will work as something people are willing to buy and I can afford to do so. Otherwise I will publish the finished product for free on the net and use it as bait. What I would like out of it is a cheap game (shooting for 10- 15 bucks US), that will be supported with 2 or 3 supplements.

Those being my long term plans here's what I've got so far.

The game is a modern day supernatural conspiracy thriller, the product of many influences that anyone who is interested will probably be aware of. The premise is that there is a magical shadow war that has been going for 500 years. The war is fought by the duellists, men and women who fight each other for Tarot cards with the goal of collecting the full deck. As one collects Tarot cards one becomes more powerful. The true movers of the game are the major arcana, those who hold one of the trumps (the tower, the devil, etc.).  Below them are members of the courts (the kings, queens, aces and so forth). Player characters have newly received a card during the endgame, when the major arcana are moving to complete their collections and attain godlike power.

Characters are created around 4 classes of skills: Physical, Mental, Social, and Supernatural, which correspond to the four suits of the tarot, Swords, Cups, Staves, and Pentacles. Characters place a priority on each suit and get a greater number of skills for the higher priority suits.

The system is diceless. Actions are described by the players with success determined by 1) the characters skill 2) the needs of the story 3) the GMs sense of what I am calling subjective realism. Each player has five action points per session which he may spend to reverse the GMs decision. The GM has 10 action points plus 1 per player which he may use to enforce his decision. Since any player can spend points to help any other do something or get in their way this should create a very interesting social situation.  Players may also flip Tarot cards once per session for a higher but more specialized effect (so sword cards allow you to automatically succeed but only on a physical action).

There is the game as it stands. I am mostly looking for people to rip this idea into little bits and give me lots of questions but here are a few specific questions of my own.

1) Is this system unique enough that to the knowledge of the posters on the forum it is not plagiarizing anyone?

2) Is this a game you would play?

3) What specific problems do you have with other games/ TV series/ movies that are similar to this in terms of the setting and characters? I would really like to avoid the pitfalls that these fall into mainly because, IMO the designers did not take the time before hand to find out how things worked.

That is all. I look forward to working with you all on this project.

Jon

[Simon W]

Yes, it is a game that to me has an interesting premise, similar in my mind to something like Highlander (check out Legacy, War of Ages) or even a bit like Amber DRPG.

Some questions - what happened 500 years ago to start this war?

How do player characters relate to each other, if they are trying to collect cards for themselves?

Are characters Immortal, or simply long-lived?

What else do you envisage characters do, besides collect cards? Are there other supernatural elements, like Vampires or whatever?

How do the duels happen? Are they magical or physical or both? Do they have some sort of code of conduct?

Are there any bad guys/good guys?

How and why do characters get their first card? What happens when they do? What happens when they get subsequent cards - i.e. how are you handling power levels?

Just a few basic questions to start with, that you might want to think about.

Simon

[JW Carroll]

Yeah both Highlander and Amber (both the novels and the game) are major influences on Duellists. I remember reading about Legacy but was told by the one person I know who actually played it that it was pretty crappy. I've never bothered to seek it out. Now that I'm working on something so similar though I think I should do the research. Any good info available about it on the web?

In answer to your questions:

what happened 500 years ago to start this war?

I have 2 answers for this one. The first is that a single wizard attained some form of ultimate power but died before he was able to do anything with it. Instead of risking a huge global war he decided to divide the power amongst his disciples and special individuals who he thought would do good things with it. Some of them then decided to try to get  more power  and started the duels. There are a lot of holes with this explanation  which are kind of obvious and make the whole idea seem kind of ill conceived. The more sensible explanation I've come up with is that a cabal of wizards summoned a demon hoping to gain tremendous power. It amused the demon to set up this game for mortals for what to him would be trivial. While this makes more sense it would require me to work out a whole cosmology for demons, which might begin to stretch the suspension of disbelief. I'm also somewhat worried about the moral implications of having a bunch of people fighting over power that is at its root evil.

How do player characters relate to each other, if they are trying to collect cards for themselves?

I envision that over time a number of factions would form. For now I think I'll call them schools.  A more experienced duellist takes a group of younger duellists under his wing and tries to impress on them his motives and to impart skills. This makes sense for the more altruistic characters as the goal would be more important then personal acheivement.  On the other hand a less scrupulous person could use the members of his school as protection, getting a few successful duels under his belt before striking out on his own.

Are characters Immortal, or simply long-lived?  

Initially I had conceived of immortals but the more I think of it the more interesting I thought it would be to have regular mortals who would pass on cards to heirs... It would certainly make turnover amongst the duellists much higher and would make the goal of completing the deck more achieveable for a PC.

What else do you envisage characters do, besides collect cards? Are there other supernatural elements, like Vampires or whatever?

No. At the point the game takes place someone is trying to bring the game to a close so figuring out whats going on and trying to just survive should provide more then enough action for the average PC.

How do the duels happen? Are they magical or physical or both? Do they have some sort of code of conduct?

Duels are in essence a fight over a card. What form the fight takes is up to the participants. There is a code of conduct in which duels are fought using  swords with magic allowed. There is no arbitrary reason, however why you couldn't shoot someone in the head and take his card.

Are there any bad guys/good guys?

I would like there to be people who would like to do good things with ultimate power and people who would do  bad things with it. I am in a quandry though about what it would mean if the nature of that power was demonic, and therefore evil.

How and why do characters get their first card? What happens when they do? What happens when they get subsequent cards - i.e. how are you handling power levels?

It could work in several ways. I like the idea of people just returning home to find a blank envelope containing a tarot card, with no explanation and just going from there as the character slowly pieces together what is going on. It would also be possible for a character to just come across the card, say a police detective picking up a card from the body of a murdered duellist. In general I think it is best that the characters are chosen for some unknown reason by a supernatural entity. Either the demon or the spirit of the original wizard. As characters get more cards they are better able to win duels and defend themselves. I also intend to develope special magical powers for each of the 22 major arcana cards beyond the normal bonuses to actions, but I've not gotten far enough in the design process to even begin to think what those should be.

[MachMoth]

So, this means there will only be a hand full of people with cards at any given time.  Since they are all mortal, I would assume that no more than a dozen people in the entire world have cards at a given time.  (as immortals, I think 500 years is enough time to have declared a winner).  That being the case, the actual duel over a card would be a rather rare (and special) occasion.  So, I would include some extra tasks that a card barer should be resposible for, if for no reason other than filling the gaps.

How would the duelists find each other?  By chance, or some driving force, perhaps.

Evil forces could be rather cool, but it could also keep your book off the shelves.  Encouraging demonics is generally looked down on by publishers.

How are duelists precieved by others?  Are their social skills (or lack there of) amplified due to their nature, or is it on a more human scale?  Do sensitive creatures such as animals shun them as their powers increase (like in ars magica)?

I'm a little worried about how a subjective, diceless system could handle the climactic duels.  A lot is at stake, and thats when the players will most feel cheated if they don't win.  Even against a stronger duelist.  Just my 2-cents, and my general experience with all diceless rpgs.  They always seem to go well, until the player starts losing.

These are just off the top of my head.  If I think of more, I'll post.

[Mike Holmes]

FWIW, there is a game in development here called Born of the Blood, that has the whole immortal thing going on. Oh, and we have to mention Immortal as well.

Basically, this has been done a little, not too much. You have your own take on it, however, so that shouldn't matter. As long as you make a good game of it, people will play.

It seems a bit silly to have tarot cards available and not to use them in resolution. Why do you want a "diceless" (per Tweet's essay on resolution methods that would be "fortuneless")?

Mike

[simon_hibbs]

Interesting idea for a game, I'd like to suggest a possible way to set this up.

Some 500 years ago a great secret societyof philosophers, artists and magicians was formed to give birth to the Renaisance. The founder was a great magician who invited the great and the good to join together and bring mankind into the light of reason. Each member of the society was appointed a rank, symbolised by a tarot card. Combinations of these cards could be used to invoke magical effects, and all the cards together could create the greatest magic of all.

The diea was that everyone would have to co-operate in order for the magic to work, but unfortunately some of the members of the society formed a cabal that attempted to sieze power. This caused a schism that fractured the society into numerous smaller groups.

Each card can only be attuned to one person at a time, and a person can only be attuned to one arcana card and one minor (numbered) card at a time. The numbered cards are power sources while the major arcana are forms of magic. People can co-operate, so if I'm attuned to the 3 of cups and you have the 6 of swords and magician card, I can contribute power from my card towards your magic.

I've no ideas about what magical effects the cards are capable of, and this isn't at all coherent, but if any of these ideas are usefull, I'll be happy.


Simon Hibbs

[JW Carroll]

Wow, you leave a thread alone for a day and look what happens.... Thanks for the responses guys; you've definitely given me a lot to think about!

There are a couple of points I'd like to dispute and questions I'd like to answer:

How would the duelists find each other? By chance, or some driving force, perhaps.

The cards work kind of like the trumps in Amber. A duellist could use one and a little effort to track down another a card holder and find their general location.

How are duelists precieved by others? Are their social skills (or lack there of) amplified due to their nature, or is it on a more human scale? Do sensitive creatures such as animals shun them as their powers increase (like in ars magica)?

Since Duellists can use cards to aid in action resolution, something normal people can't do, they tend to be stronger, smarter and even more attractive then normal people so a duellist would be able to do things a normal person would find impossible.    It is also possible that a duellist focused on collecting one or two suits say cups and pentacles, would retain human or near human levels for strength and social skill, though this might cause them to be viewed kind of like an idiot savant by more rounded duellists. Personally I see no reason that animals should shun them as they increase in power.

It seems a bit silly to have tarot cards available and not to use them in resolution.

The tarot cards are used in resolution, though not randomly. A player may choose to flip (ie turn over the card so that it is face down on the table in front of the controlling player) one of his tarot cards in order to add a higher bonus to a contested action involving the suit of the card then would be gained by spending an action point or to automatically succeed in an action involving the same suit. A player could flip all of his Tarot cards once per session and then they would unflip at the beginning of the next session.

I'd also like to thank Simon_hibbs. While your treatment of the tarot cards doesn't seem to be exactly what I want your idea of what the Cabal might have been like may work well to set up the current situation of schools so I'm going to take that and run with it.  Cheers!

Oh yes and it should be noted for right now I am no longer writing under the assumption that the duellists are immortal. Instead the number of cards one holds may increase the lifespan. Not sure about this yet.

[roleplyr4ever]

I love your Idea for this game. I am a bit worried about the whole system. This seems like a game with no point (sorry for being harsh). I say make it more epic. Have factions. Have it to where certain people have characteristics that would be to good use in a faction. Then, the Faction gives the player 1 card. I think the cards should  have certain "powers" like the ace of pentacles could be astral projection or levitation. There could be an astral or a dream plane in which the cards could exist. Make it to where you can use differnt cards as combos, and create "tarot spells". All the players in a group could be rebellious and ditch there faction, but all meet up because of some "divine force" that runs through the world. They make there own faction, and fight for the cards to save humanity (or destroy it). I really (no offense) dont like the demon Idea. I would say make it to where Certain energies, powers, and things were locked away in the tarot. For years the one mystical deck with all the powers in it radiated its power to other tarot decks. Then, one day, someone found it, and did a spread. The cards that turned up int the spread were part of a phrophecy, and certain people recignized that the prophecy had come true. SO~ they got there less powerful tarot decks together, and tried to capture the open energies of the mystical deck. When a card is captured, it manifest its power into the same card in the less powerful deck. SO~ that leaves it to where you can still have cool magic effects without the trouble of only having one card for awhile.

Sorry that this is disorganized. I just typed what popped into my head. Let me know if I am am totally out of line for suggesting this.

[roleplyr4ever]

P.S. Duellist seems a little to "kidish" and "Yugioh-ish". I would suggest coming up with a name that more suits the darker, more paranormal feel of the game.  ALSO~ you might want to encourage things like "use your tarot to help hunt down witches that abuse there powers". How about that depending on your "in game religion" grants you certain things? like if you are Wiccan in the game, you could have a natural feel for using the pentacle cards.

[JW Carroll]

For those of you following this Duellists has made a major shift in direction since I posted yesterday and now has a much more defined though still incomplete history.  Overall I think the game has really matured and become stronger. The Forge has thus far surpassed all my expectations.

First off I've dropped out the immortals. Cards can double your life but thats all (as far as life extension powers go.)

Also the setting has become a hell of a lot more complex... So much so I'm now looking at at least 5 or 6 supplements instead of the original 2 or 3 I had planned.

The cards come from a cabal of wizards and philosophers in the early 16th century who wanted to encourage and promote the Renaissance. They were created as an identifier and also as talismans to grant the members of this cabal the power to acheive their goals. Over time however disputes arose over whose vision was the correct one. Some wanted to promote science and learning while others wanted a return to the blind faith of the medieval period. The first duels arose to settle these disputes. A number of Duellist's schools grew up around popular ideas in order to train their members so that they could win duels and acheive their goal.  All order broke down during the American and French revolutions and brought about the current situation. Actually its a lot more complex then that but I need to go to work. Feel free to hammer away at the new ideas I've presented.