NINJAS!!!

[Vanguard]

The main reason I think you'd want to include Ninja is because they balance the samurai. And because they look cool.

The Samurai epitomized Japanese values; the appearance of devotion being more important amost than genuine devotion itself. It's that ambiguity which makes the culture interesting and real. Even if conformity is very stringent, people still are people, with dirty thoughts and naughty intentions. They're not stereotypes.

The Samurai must adhere to this code. This limits him in many ways.

There are many 'useful' duties a Samurai cannot be seen to perform, or ways of approaching a problem which he cannot allow himself. He must always project that appearance of the devoted slave. Spying, disguise, assassination. All these strategies are essential for war, yet a Lord could never ask such of a Samurai. It is only natural that a need would arise for individuals who can perform that role.

The danger lies in making Ninja nothing other than uber-death-samurai who wear black, have cooler tricks, and throw shuriken wherever they go. Samurai were married to the sword, grew up to know mainly of war and battle. On the whole, a Samurai would outfight a Ninja. A ninja, however, can provide an alternative service to open aggression, when the direct approach isn't appropriate.

And did I say they look cool.

[Krammer]

You need to realize, though, that the Ninja aren't too much different than a western assassin. They wear cooler clothes, and they have a different method of going about with their work, but just how much different are they from what you could find in Europe? It's not like the Ninja are the only ones who can sneak around, spying and killing people. Anybody who trains in the right way could do that. You could make just as good a character in the western parts of Weyrth as it is.
  Because of that, there shouldn't be any question in the game as to whether or not you can make a Ninja character. Why shouldn't you be able to?

[Ron Edwards]

Jake, I recommend looking at any "historical sources" regarding ninja with an extremely skeptical eye.  

Best,
Ron

[Bloodstryke]

Hello everyone!

I ordered the book just last Wed, and I'm very excited about getting it. I've been emailing Brian back and forth, and discussing some things with him, and this was one of them.

I don't see why a ninja can't be created under the current rules......

You can already make thieves, spies, assassins, and ne'er-do-wells, why do you need anything but the weapon/armor stats to create one?

Jake has thoughtfully included Eastern cultures into the normal setting of Weyrth, so why can't your thieves/spies/assassins from Tengoku be ninja?

Why do ninja need magic? If the ninja paid the price to be a sorcerer. (i.e. put his priorities in that order) He could be lacking skills which are the ninja/thief/assassin's stock-in-trade. I don't think ninja, and sorcerer are mutually exclusive mind you, but for EVERY ninja to be a sorcerer is absurd.

As is giving them their own unique magic system. If Jake wants to include a system for Hedge magic, then by all means, ninja are welcome to it JUST like every other PC and NPC in the world of Weyrth. It should also fall under the priorities in character creation. Not as expensive as sorcery, but not a priority F either......

Anyway, this is not to say that ninja aren't cool. I fell in love with them in the 80's just like every other kid. They are a great icon/archetype for a character, and I can see the potential for a lot of great role-playing, even the SAs would be great.  (Passion: Loyalty to the clan)

It's just that most game systems make a ninja the ultimate in munchkinism by giving ninja unique abilities or stats, and I don't want to see this happen in TROS. I like the way that it is setup, and I like the freedom that is given in the character creation process. So why the synthetic "east"/"west" division? As Jake has said many times, Western Martial Arts and Eastern Martial arts do not cancel each other out. Both use different tools (longsword vs. katana, naginata vs. spear) but both are designed with the same thing in mind. Killing people or at least putting them out of commission. Neither is superior, nor are they that different. (as there are only so many ways for the human body to move)

That's just my 2 cents on this issue, and I hope that I haven't stepped on anyone's toes by being the newbie who comes in and rails off an opinion that doesn't meet with the group consensus. Have fun playing TROS, I know I will as soon as I can get my book and read it.

[spunky]

SHINOBI: SHADOWS OF NIHON is an excellent sourcebook for, if not authentic "ninjas" (the concept of which, as R.E. has pointed out, is a contradiction in terms), creating shinobi as close to the historical myth as possible.   It was published as a supplement for SENGOKU; I'm not sure if it's still in print...

[casinormal]

Yeah, another good game sourcebook on Ninja (as well as Samurai and Japan in general) is Runequest's Land of Ninja.  In it, Ninja are simply very highly trained operatives, not magical freaks.  Yes, it's feasible that there could be certain clans (or certain members within a clan, given the scarcity of mages in RoS) that implement magic, but not every ninja need be magical.  Like I said, they are simply extremely well trained spies, assassins, and thieves (but having training from birth pretty much destroys your chance for a normal life...I think to really create one, you'd have to "win" the right to use more priority As, so first-character ninja might not be possible).  There could be a couple of clan skills, as well, but these are things that a Westerner could learn, too, should he have time and ability to do so, as well as a teacher in some cases

-Joel Norman,
a voice from the past (yes, I'm back and back into gaming)

[Bloodstryke]

Yes, clan skills could be a way to differentiate the ninja, and I agree that a Westerner should be allowed to learn them as well. I would like to see TROS avoid the East/West dichotomy that most games foster. I believe an integrated world of Weyrth makes more sense.

I prefer the "highly trained operative" approach to ninja. It makes more sense to me than mystically trained superbeings with KeWl PoWerZ.

[tauman]

Yes, clan skills could be a way to differentiate the ninja, and I agree that a Westerner should be allowed to learn them as well. I would like to see TROS avoid the East/West dichotomy that most games foster. I believe an integrated world of Weyrth makes more sense.

I prefer the "highly trained operative" approach to ninja. It makes more sense to me than mystically trained superbeings with KeWl PoWerZ.

I actually like the idea of them having totally mundane skills, but using trickery and such to convince witnesses otherwise - so while players and characters might know that their "powers" are all tricks, the average "man in the street" is convinced otherwise. Note that this does not mean physical and fighting superpowers, just good preparation and practice. Although, it can be a little (and I mean a little!) idealized for the game. The skills and the secrecy should be enough to make them very intriguing aand dangerous. Certainly if a party member was a ninja, none of the other members would even know (and probably wouldn't even suspect). If one found out, however, it would probably mean a death sentence for the party member or the ninja (their secrecy is on of the things that protects them from the powers-that-be just wiping them all out). Some of their gadgets might be neat, too - as no one would really know how to use them and even if they figure it out, they will have to practice a lot to be successful. Basically, if you want to learn "ninja-stuff" there goes a lot of your time for learning other stuff, and I wonder what the locals would think of you... Not to mention that you might be visited late one night by those you are trying to emulate - and not to partake in a tea ceremony...

Another interesting variation on the trained killer is the historical assassin cult...

tauman

[Bloodstryke]

Several good points!

Secrecy and trickery, it worked for real ninja, now it can work for TROS ninja. I also like the idea that the other party members would have no idea......

That gives me an idea for a plot.... Thanx!! :)

[casinormal]

Actually, really incorporating the secret identity thing as a player is kind of hard.  Unless your group is used to the idea of nobody being allowed to look at another's charactar sheet (which I like, but is little practiced), other players figure out soon enough that a PC is a ninja, and then it becomes simply a matter of roleplaying it well enough, which is also seldomly done correctly.
But this raises another point...I disagree that a ninja would be lacking in other more normal skills. Besides the fact that ninjas would then become an excuse to be munchkins, I point out that since a ninja probably would have to do spying and maintain cover identities, ninja should be skilled in doing mundane tasks as well as the other cooler stuff.  Hence why I say they probably need to be a special "earned charactar" in order to have the right priorities to use.  But as I also pointed out, being trained from childhood would mark somebody's life permenantly.  They will ALWAYS have enemies looking for them, and would almost always have superiors to answer to (unless they rebel and have their former clan hunting them down, which relates to what I just said).  Normal adventurers might be able to retire someday and settle down to a more-or-less normal life, but a ninja very rarely could.

[Mike Holmes]

other players figure out soon enough that a PC is a ninja, and then it becomes simply a matter of roleplaying it well enough, which is also seldomly done correctly.

This is a matter of play style. For some groups this will be a problem. For other's it's a very simple matter. It comes down to the players agreeing that even if their characters have conflicting goals, that the players don't have to as well. IOW, it's all dependent on the level of player v player competition, which is often subsumed in such styles.

Mike

[casinormal]

It's interesting...a couple years back, when I was one of the nameless Texans (see the book) helping to create and playtest Riddle, I talked with Jake about the whole Ninja and eastern thing.  I see from all the commentary on it here that I was not alone in my thinking.
Some actual clan skills that could make Ninja "cool" with out magic (besides special weapons and obvious stealth abilities) could be certain poisons implemented by certain clans, escape artistry, perhaps a clan sign language for use when on a mission and the characters must maintain silence, and MAYBE the ability to parry arrows/missles.  That last one has come up in a few other games, and I've always wondered if it's really plausible as a Ninja trick.  Any thoughts?

[Brian Leybourne]

and MAYBE the ability to parry arrows/missles.  That last one has come up in a few other games, and I've always wondered if it's really plausible as a Ninja trick.  Any thoughts?

Hell, I've seen people do it IRL, so it's not at all implausable, I just imagine it's very very difficult and something you have to focus all your attention on (so no blocking multiple ones at the same time, perhaps).

Brian.