Gen Con So Cal -- Can I answer any questions?

[Ron Edwards]

Oh, I dunno, Michael. I think it's worth a shot, if the pamphlets being handed out are nifty. Perhaps my image of the actual play is a little different, too - I'm thinking of infectious enthusiasm, not huddled interior-focused shared autism (my usual description of observing role-playing).

Best,
Ron

[Jeffrey Miller]

Oh, I dunno, Michael. I think it's worth a shot, if the pamphlets being handed out are nifty. Perhaps my image of the actual play is a little different, too - I'm thinking of infectious enthusiasm, not huddled interior-focused shared autism (my usual description of observing role-playing).

Also, if we had a little "velvet rope" thing to cordon off the "cool kids playing Indies" - create a little Studio 54 atmosphere in the hallway, that'll attract at least a little attention. A tripod sign that trumpets "Now Playing.." and has a little holder for pamphlets, some of us more outgoing over-the-top Forgies...

Can anyone say "RPG Flash Mob"?

Ron, you said the word "bazaar" in reference to the corral of open gaming tables.  While I tend to agree with your perspective on the nature of this space (and go a bit further to question the efficacy of un-stunt-like demos unattatched to the retail space) what I keyed in on was that word, "bazaar"  The Forge booth really did seem to be the "Cairo Market" of the Hall (if you'll pardon a rather unfortunate metaphor)  That's a _good_ thing in some respects, and I'm already getting some ideas for next years booth (if/when, of course)

-j-

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Jeffrey,

I'm using "bazaar" in a positive sense - a sort of acres-covering Forge booth space, less centralized in terms of a common vision but still full of verve and highly-localized fun. That's consistent with Peter's and Luke's interpretation of the idea, I think. And as you say, using the Forge booth from 2002 and 2003 as a model, that'd be cool. But I can't tell what your point is - you focus on the word "bazaar" but then what?

Am I reading you correctly, that you agree with me that the proposed open-tables space would probably fail at this goal? It's very hard to understand from your post what you're supporting.

Best,
Ron

[Jeffrey Miller]

I'm using "bazaar" in a positive sense - a sort of acres-covering Forge booth space, less centralized in terms of a common vision but still full of verve and highly-localized fun. That's consistent with Peter's and Luke's interpretation of the idea, I think. And as you say, using the Forge booth from 2002 and 2003 as a model, that'd be cool. But I can't tell what your point is - you focus on the word "bazaar" but then what?

Yes yes YES!  Concentrated, localized fun and excitement.  

The word bazaar evokes a sense of exotic spices, screeching monkeys, Paul Simon music.. things foreign to the viewer, but not terribly off-putting. I'm sort of wondering aloud if there's anything liftable from the concept of "everything under the sun, whether you know you want it or not" towards creating a space, atmosphere, attitude, and approach to the continued efforts of promoting Indie games;  it seems almost that Indie games should be using Indie tactics to create their own meme-space.. which is why I like your Flash Mob RPG idea.  It fits.

You know, we really should've taken over the Upper Deck area and gamed like mad in thier skate park..

Am I reading you correctly, that you agree with me that the proposed open-tables space would probably fail at this goal? It's very hard to understand from your post what you're supporting.

I agree with you, in so much as the idea as presented lacks anything that makes it stand out from any other gaming area, booth, or arena in the hall.

As usual, I'm speaking in unformed sentances about less-than concrete ideas.  Let me mull on it for a while, to come up with some solid, presentable "here's the plan I'm suggesting" thoughts.

-jeffrey-

[Mike Holmes]

Uh, if it's a matter of doing Guerilla-theatre stuff, I think that's definitely doable. That is, there are already tables out there, and people play on em. Who could know if it was a demo or not? In a sense, every game is a demo of it's product.

The thing is, that would preclude hawking or selling games there as it's outside of the hall. Or, rather, that's the only thing that I'm aware of that's currently prohibited in those spaces (Mr. Adkison will hopefully correct me if I'm wrong). So it's definitely do-able from a play sense.

But then where's your bazaar atmosphere? I mean, didn't we have a thread a while back in which we discussed such ideas, and they were shot down because of the no-sale clause? I can't see Peter changing his mind on that policy, as, if he did, every company would want to be able to roam and sell in the halls, leading to mass chaos.

Or am I missing something in the plan?

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Mike,

I think you're fielding two discussions at once, which are unrelated.

1. The guerrilla-game 20 minute thing isn't about sales right then and there. The only value added is to pass out the pamphlets.

2. Speaking for myself only, I'm quite happy with the bazaar concept being limited to a Forge booth or to anyone else who gets such a booth going. I'm logged as versus the multi-table play space in the exhibit hall, as currently described.

3. As far as sales and "real" (i.e. long) demo play is concerned, that's terra incognita. The current system doesn't attract me, but that doesn't mean something's wrong with it or that anything should change.

Best,
Ron

[PeterAdkison]

Okay, it looks like there are three concepts floating about, so I thought I'd try and summarize and post my thoughts on each.

(1) Guerilla-theater RPG. The issue I have with this is that it violates two policies: no hand-billing (passing out flyers) or free demos outside the booth. There are two reasons behind these polices. One is to protect my revenues by steering as much business toward the booth as possible so that exhibitors are highly motivated to buy booths. The other is that if handbilling is unlimited, very quickly we end up with a real litter problem as many people just take flyers and throw them on the floor.

I will add that my heart isn't really in either of these policies. My memories of being a small game publisher (WotC, from 1990-1993) are very traumatic and I didn't like these policies when I was "on the other side of the coin." To tell you the truth, as long as it's small companies and they're being respectful, we tend to look the other way. These policies are mainly targetted at companies (I won't give examples) who have grossly abused the situation by not buying any booth, ad space, or sponsorship, yet still expect to use Gen Con as a marketing opportunity and will do things like set up operations in the open gaming area and run free demos and sell games on the sly. (By the way, this is why TSR killed the open gaming area for awhile--we brought it back because it just seems silly to have a convention without an open gaming area, but we're apprehensive about it.)

But I hate the "you're not supposed to do this, but go ahead and we'll look the other way" answer. I'd rather have a more permissive policy, and perhaps this will inspire me to write one.

(2) Noise levels. I liked Christopher Weeks' post with the diagram. That's somethign like what I was thinking of. I'm not sure what we'll do here, but noise is a problem that's bigger than just indie RPGs, so I'm very motivated to do something. I'm definitely going to discuss this with Jeanette and see what we can come up with. I was very inspired when I went to Spellen Spectakel in Eindhoven, Netherlands last year. They have HUGE curtains that hang down like dividers around the exhibit hall. The cool thing is that these curtains were spray painted so they were very beautiful and they dampened noise too. We've thought about something like this but have been intimidated by the cost (not just to make them, but rigging, transportation, and storage too--point of trivia: the old TSR Gen Con castle cost $100,000 per year to maintain!).

I do have to post the caveat that managing the exhibit hall is perhaps the most difficult part of the convention to manage. Most exhibitors have very strong feelings about where they want to be in the hall, there's priority points to worry about, and add to that the big exhibitors like WotC and Upper Deck, who we'd like to put in the back so that no one has to go around them (and to draw traffic), but since they're the biggest companies they have priority points and should be able to go wherever they like. ::pausing to catch my breath:: Add to that the idea of having a quiet zone and it's adding one more big criteria to an already very challenging problem. God that sounds whiny! But we need to do something.

(3) The small company area. Without a clear consensus among you (the most likely participants) that this is a great idea I'm very reluctant to recommend this to Jeanette, for some of the same reasons as #2 above, which is that it further complicates the exhibit hall. Maybe I'm giving Ron too much influence here, but his indie-rpg banner does seem to have a decent following, so I'm really looking for an idea with The Forge at the top of the sign-up sheet. (I'm sure I'll get flamed for this one!)

I'm sensing this thread is nearing an end, but I'll monitor for awhile in case someone comes up with another suggestion, and I'll come back with a follow up after I've had time to discuss these ideas internally a bit and contemplate. I think we've made some progress, in that #1 MAY lead to some more permissive policies (and if not abused could be happening anyway), #2 will PROBABLY result in something, and #3 is probably a no-go.

Cheers!

[Mike Holmes]

3. As far as sales and "real" (i.e. long) demo play is concerned, that's terra incognita. The current system doesn't attract me, but that doesn't mean something's wrong with it or that anything should change.

What's the problem that you see with the current demo system, Ron? Apparently you're not bothered by location, as the Guerrilla demos wouldn't be in the exhibit hall. And you're not bothered by the fact that you can't sell outside the demo hall. It seems to me that there's only two things that bother you.

A)The demo slots are too long - The thing about this is that slots are paid for by time. So, if I'm not mistaken, it doesn't really matter what you do in that time. The point being that you can run as many games as you want in a slot. And players can come and go at whim. Sure it's traditional for players to play in two, four, whatever hour blocks. But it's not mandated by any means.

B)The demo slots can only attract people who spot them in the book and seek them out - But that's not true either. You can shanghai players in the halls and drag them to your demo table. It seems very little different to me to drop the table in the hall where the players are, and to just drag a few players to the table. If it's drama you're looking for, the demo team can provide that. I've seen many a group do exactly that sort of thing.

So, what you get is a table reserved by the group, putatively under Adept Press, or whatever organizers, at which you constantly have a staff grabbing players. Just like in the event hall.

If this requires tickets, then the players have to pony up one generic (which we'll have tons of on hand), and, here's the fun part, can play in as many demos as they can squeeze into in two hours. "How far can you make your buck-fifty go!?!" With enough staff there, we can then send them with (armed if neccessary) escorts to take them to the booth in the hall where they can then buy when they express an interest. Or perhaps automatically at the end their play. :-)

Or, if Peter were amenable, this could be in a free demo area. Basically, a room off of the exhibit hall in which companies who have paid for booths, and those companies only, could run quiet demos. This way, he gets paid, and we get our quiet space to spread out. If neccessary, this could be a value added product for companies complete with reservations for space.

In any case, again with enough staff (and when don't we have enough staff?), players captured at the booth in the hall could be escorted to the tables in question to play. So you'd actually have two points at which to grab people, at the booth, and at the demo room. Which could alleviate some of our population problems.

Not radical enough? Certainly not by Dav's criteria. But it still seems like a decent idea to me.

Mike

[M. J. Young]

Guerilla-theater RPG. The issue I have with this is that it violates two policies: no hand-billing (passing out flyers) or free demos outside the booth. There are two reasons behind these polices. One is to protect my revenues by steering as much business toward the booth as possible so that exhibitors are highly motivated to buy booths. The other is that if handbilling is unlimited, very quickly we end up with a real litter problem as many people just take flyers and throw them on the floor.

Maybe this would require too much policing, but could something be set up such that companies could buy a license to do free demos and/or handbills outside the booths? It could, I would think, be set up as an add-on to purchase of a booth and separately as a sort of license--you would have to pay more for the right if you were using it in lieu of buying a booth, but if you bought a booth you'd still have to pay a little extra for hand billing and remote demos. In theory, those who see these extras as worth the investment will buy them, and those who prefer to focus everything on the booth will not.

As to policing, the license could be in the form of a badge or two that could be given to whatever staff members actually did the demos or handbilling, so it could be seen at a glance that this person has paid for it, or has not.

There could be further restrictions, such as the length of time a remote free demo could be in the same place, the right of con security to move it out of traffic lanes, et cetera--but there might be something workable here.

--M. J. Young

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

M.J., that's a license I'd be willing to pay for.

Again, Peter, thanks for all the work here. Your last post is everything that a publisher of any size could ask for.

Second, to Mike regarding demo policy, I don't have a problem with the demo hall as it stands. I have my problem with it, which is completely isolated to myself as a publisher. I don't recommend any particular change or ask for any attention to that problem.

Based on Peter's comments, I think we've closed the thread. Any secondary issues ("So what's your problem with the demo hall, Ron?") can go to other threads.

Best,
Ron

[LordSmerf]

Not being a publisher and not having attended a GenCon event (yet) i still think these suggestions may generate some interesting ideas.

On noise levels: instead of a loud side/quiet side.  Perhaps some sort of sliding scale which points allow you to fudge around, but only to a point.  I don't know how practical this is since you do get sponsorships from the big guys.

On geurilla marketing: you've already stated that you don't sell all your booths...  Would it be possible to structure the hall layout in such a way that a short (30 min.) time slot could be purchased in one of these slots after booth purchase is finished.  These could be rather low costed (for exhibitors) since no one else wanted the space and since you can never count on one existing where you need it, and low costed for the organizers (who have already payed for the space without seeing any return).  Perhaps even tie this in with the liscense idea.  If you buy a liscense you can use any of these slots for up to 30 minutes at a time provided that they are free.

If you do a liscense in this way then you end up with the assumption of risk by the liscensee since the space may be in use, but it allows you to sanction this type of tactic (and get payed) without messing up fire lanes or blocking traffic.  It's sort of like having a fluid booth system.  Permanent operations can't be set up there since you only have 30 minutes to an hour, but it can be used to stage some pretty crazy, short setup/breakdown marketing.

Unfortunately, this could present an incredibly aggravating enforcement problem.  You would have to either trust in exhibitors' honesty or police the areas to make sure that no one is overstaying...

Just some thoughts of mine as i read over this...

Thomas

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

I repeat, this thread is closed. No more posting here, please.

Best,
Ron