Don't bring a fist to a sword fight....?

[Tash]

I was thinking the other day about the use of hand to hand strikes in fencing.  We've all seen swachbuckler movies where fencing opponents perform a quick backfist or kick during a swordfight, and I was thinking that TRoS has no real way to do this.

Its not an unrealistic tactic at all, I know that a number of historic fencing schools taught unarmed strikes as a way of opening or setting up a killing shot with the weapon (read the ARMA article on kicking in sword combat).

So here is what I came up with:
Grappling, punches and kicks can be used in armed combat by any opponent in the same way the multiple weapons are used: an extra attack is possible during an exchange, but the fighter must divide their CP accordingly.
Unarmed attacks all have a 1CP activation cost UNLESS the fighter has the same procifency level in pugalisim/brawling or wrestling as they do in whatever weapon they are using.  Actually this is a house rule for using weapons with mismatched proficencies (like an axe and a dagger).
If the attacker is using a punch they must not be using a wepaon that can only be held in two hands.  If they do they cannot make any action during that exchange using their main weapon.
Range penalties apply.
Launching an unarmed attack during an exchange where your opponent has initiative and is attacking, the unarmed attack ALWAYS lands SECOND.

What does everyone think?  The basic idea is that, under some circumstances, a well timed punch or kick could knock enough CP off your opponent to turn the tide of a fight.

[Turin]

I think things like punches, kicks, trips are useful but only used when a oppurtunity presents itself.  In other words, one does not go looking to kick someone when using a sword, but if an oppurtunity presents itself, the kick flies.  It's similar to the martial arts in a way IMO.  You do not go into an exchange looking to strike with an elbow.  But if body positioning means that is the best strike, you strike.

I think it would be hard to represent this with TROS mechanics, as one will generaly take the most advantageous strike available, mixing it enough only to keep the target off balance.

I think the only way to random generate this would be similar to the counter table.  Sometimes the only allowable option is a strike with a hand or something.  However, I would not allow a counter or other offensive manuver, probably only a block or evade, and maybe with an activation penalty for the defender.

[Tash]

I agree the only way to do it realistically would be to have some mechanics tracking realative body position, but that's probably too detailed for most groups...certainly it is for mine.

But even staying within the constraints of TRoS's maneuver system I think kicks and punches are at least as potentially useful as moves like stop short and toss, when used at the right moment.

Lets say you are in the second exchange of a round against a closely matched opponent.  He's attacking with his remaining dice, say 6.  Lets say you have 8 left.  Depending on weapon TNs you could potentially decide to defend with 5 dice and then, assuming you succeed with the defense, launch a 3 dice punch at his face.  He can't defend (all his dice are gone till next round) so your shot has a good chance of succeeding.  It won't be a telling wound but the shock could be enough to knock a few dice from his pool next round AND a successful hit would mean you got initiative even if the defense rolls were even.  

So basically you parry a blow, "cheap shot" your enemy with a blow to the face, then cut him down before he can recover.

[Jake Norwood]

In my experience using feet (or, much more rarely, hands) in a swordfight is really part of grappling. Thus, to model a kick in a swordfight in TROS, I would just use the mechanics for a grapple-to-throw, or perhaps a grapple-to-trap that lasts for just one or two exchanges. These strikes are almost never such to do damage to the opponent, but rather exist to throw them off balance or otherwise create an opening--the same thing that the grapple maneuvers do in TROS now.

Jake

[Richard_Strey]

It's similar to the martial arts in a way IMO.

Take a look at what you are saying here. *Of course* it is similar to martial arts, it *is* a martial art, after all. *grrrr....*

That being said, I have found no problem to model any technique known to me so far. Suppose you are fighting Longsword to Longsword and your opponent is attacking and almost out of dice, so you want to nail him -unlethally- before the next exchange comes around. What keeps you from taking your handful of dice and declaring a simultaneous parry and strike? You parry with your sword, pay the difference in range and let him taste your fist. Works wonders in certain situations.

[Tash]

As far as I know you can only declare a "parry and strike" if you have two weapons.  1 weapon =  1 action in each exchange under the TRoS rules as they were explained when I asked a simillar question.

[coryblack_666]

wouldnt you consider a longsword in one hand and the other hand a tight fist 2 weapons?  I think it would work fine.

[Tash]

That's the idea behind my rule: a fist or foot counts as a second weapon, so you can make an attack with it in the same exchange that you parry with your main weapon, you just have to divide the CP among the two actions (same as sim parry+strike).

[Turin]

These are all good mechanics for the use of the "hand" in combat.  But as you generaly lower your effectiveness by using the hand, I still think mechanics similar to halfswording making the only weapon to be used a hand on certain rolls would bring this into play better.


Richard wrote:

Take a look at what you are saying here. *Of course* it is similar to martial arts, it *is* a martial art, after all. *grrrr....*

Okay, okay.  I made the common mistake of referring the eastern martial arts hand-to-hand combat styles as martial arts.  I should know better.