Off Handed Weapons

[MarktheAnimator]

Well, now I'm going to have to make some changes...

Perhaps a -50% for off handed use without training?  What do you think?



In my game, I have what I call "Complex Attacks."  These are where you do something beyond a normal strike with a single weapon.

Well, to prevent players from "raping the sytsem" and doing something more involved every turn, I created a rule that says that if you perform a complex attack, you will not be able to attack next round......

ok, fine.... but now that you say that two weapon style allows you to make atacks more quickly..... hmmm.... I had called a dual attack a complex attack.... but I think now I'm going to change it.  I've been thinking about this for a long time.  Now I know I have to change it.

I guess I was mixing up the regular fighting rules with different fighting styles..

A "blocking strike" as you say is what I call, "Pin Weapon and Strike" so I've got it covered. :)  thx for mentioning it tho.  I also have a maneuver called, "Hook Shield and Strike."  What do you think?



The person that told me about lefties being more difficult to parry was refering to medieval combat, not rapiers... hmm...

How should I simulate a fighter's "laziness" while fighting lefties?
I don't have a system of "flaws" so I may keep the penalty to parry attacks from lefties unless you buy a "skill" of watching out for it.... I guess this can cover the laziness factor you were mentioning....


I guess I've opened up a can of worms....
I thought my fighting styles part of my game was finished.... perhaps it needs some tweaking.
I may make different fighting styles (two weapons, single weapon, weapon & shield, polearms, flails, ambidextrous, lefties) a bit more "expensive" to buy.
I may also go into more detail into what they are and give more bonuses when using a particular style and more penalties when not.  
I've included ambidextrous and lefties as a "style" but maybe I should call them something else?


Incidentally GregS, a friend of mine, Kam Yuen was the technical advisor to the original Kung Fu series.  He's a really cool guy. :)
Where do you do your stunt work?
I'm really glad to get your perspective on this.
My friend specializes in asian stuff and my game is set in europe.


thx for all the info everyone!  This is very interesting. :)

[LordSmerf]

Perhaps instead of an off-hand penalty, use an off-hand cap.

Fighting with your off-hand without special training uses your weapon skill or 20% whichever is lower.

Essentially, no matter how good you are with one hand it can only add to tacitcal planning for the off-hand.  Without the muscle memory all you can say is "I should parry and riposte" you can't actually do it very well...

Is your goal to realistically show combat or to be cool?  If it's the former i recomend a close look at The Riddle of Steel and if it's the latter, who cares about perfect precision?  Have a double strike and all the rest...

Thomas

[GregS]

I definately agree with Smerf.  The problem with trying to make a game overly realistic is that, as odd as this sounds, combat reality is very subjective.  How one person, even as a trained professional, behaves in a situation is inherently unique and individual...so trying to apply sweeping modifiers to theoretical situations may just not be worth the effort.

For me, I like to keep combat basic and let the gamers apply the level of reality they want.  Heck, if you look around the net, you'll see people who actually believe armor is too heavy to walk in, that broadswords weigh 15 pounds, and that katanas can cut through a Buick.  ;)  

Thus, I go back to the suggestion of optional rules, flaws, whatever you'd like to include, but I wouldn't encourage you to saddle your players with rules they may not want to implement.  For me, being the combat nut I am, I took all the stuff I really wanted to include in my game but didn't think the "average" gamer would want to use (recoil, penatration, off handed penalties, etc.) and put it all under an optional rules heading.

Finally, as for me as a "professional", I mostly work out of the Seattle area, and until the last couple of years was active with a few different groups, on indie flicks, and did occassional work in LA and Oregon.  If you need help on European stuff I'd be happy to lend my two bits in.  PM me and we'll talk more about it.  And that goes for anyone on the lists as well.  We (Game Monkeys) actually have a very impressive "team" that pools knoweldge to help people who need consulting.  Check out http://www.gmpress.com and click on Stunt Monkeys, or PM me for more info.

[Mike Holmes]

OK, first, if you haven't already, see the discussions in the TROS forum on this subject.

Second, to cover some of the more important notes: People have noted that when you train, you train in only one hand of use. That is, let's say that you train with a rapier - you train either right or left handed. If you add a main gauche, then you train with that in the other hand. If you reverse this process, it's almost as though you'd never trained at all. Not quite, but almost. That is, there are some elements of the training that may transfer over, but for the most part it's like starting from scratch again.

Now, for some skills, you train both ways. For example, as stated before, football blocks. But this is the exception rather than the rule, and almost never the case with something like swordsmanship where you get to pick normally which side to use. People pick their dominant side, and then stick with it. They rarely, if ever, train with the other hand. Again, for two weapon styles that means that, unless they're the same weapon, you only learn how to use the one weapon in one hand, and the other in the other.

For some skills, you practice the "off" side for certain circumstances, but never learn it as well as the other side. For instance, I practiced hard to learn to do left handed layups. I'm not bad, but certainly not as good as right handed. But I had to specifically practice left-handed layups to learn to do them - no amount of right-haded layups really help at all.

Yes, mental knowledge helps a tiny bit, but since the vast majority of this is a matter of muscle memory, again, it's nearly like starting over. So, first thing is to reduce any bonus from skill to very small. In fact, reducing the skill bonus to zero isn't out of line. If you want more realisim, deop it by 90%. Thus, if your bonus (apologies, I'm unaware of how your actual system works) from Dex is 20%, and your bonus from skill is 60% for a total of 80%, then I'd reduce the 60% down to 6% for a total of 26%.

Now, that said, I'd also reduce the Dex bonus some. That is, you really only have your full Dex in your dominant hand (this could be represented as a bonus, I suppose). So, in the example, I might cut the Dex down by 10% to 10% making the total 16%.

Ambidexterity merely means that you don't have this Dex penalty. Thus, the difference between two right handed swordsmen one who is ambidexterous, and one who is not, in terms of off hand use, would be 16% to 26%. Significant, but nothing like the difference between being ambidexterous and being trained in the left hand, which would be 70% - 10% Dex, plus 60% skill.

I know this is accurate. I have an ambidexterous brother. What ambideterity means for him is that he tends to learn any ability with whatever hand. He writes with his right hand, and throws fribee with his left. He bats lefty, because he decided to learn this way when he learned that it was advantageous to be a lefty batter. Etc. This doesn't mean that he can wirte with his left hand. Rather, he can, but it's as messy as if he'd never practiced at all with his right.

And none of this, BTW, means that anybody can attack more quickly than anyone else. No matter how many weapons you have in your hands your co-ordination will only allow so much. Yes, you can make "Dual Attacks" and such, and these are an advantage - but they are merely an expression of your skill with the weapons. Again, see TROS.

Mike

[MarktheAnimator]

Hello,
Yes that has been my experience with juggling too.

When you try a new trick, it is like starting over, since your muscles haven't learned how to throw the balls in the new way.