[Makyo] System kernel for critique

[eef]

Lower roll is better (within a level), roll a 1 and you can immediatley roll again at the next level up. When I say "level" I mean another whole set of 7 dice.

DIAGRAM:

LEVEL 1-------------------------|-LEVEL 2-------------------- etc..
d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 | d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 etc..
Amateur -------------Perfect | Amateur------------------Perfect

Does this help?

I'm sorry but I'm being really dense here.  
Let's say I have 1d4 against 2d10.  I roll
1d4     3
2d10   6, 7

who wins?

[Andrew Martin]

Lower roll is better (within a level), roll a 1 and you can immediatley roll again at the next level up. When I say "level" I mean another whole set of 7 dice.

DIAGRAM:

LEVEL 1-------------------------|-LEVEL 2-------------------- etc..
d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 | d20 d16 d12 d10 d8 d6 d4 etc..
Amateur -------------Perfect | Amateur------------------Perfect

Does this help?

I'm sorry but I'm being really dense here.  
Let's say I have 1d4 against 2d10.  I roll
1d4     3
2d10   6, 7

who wins?

Actually for the second level D10, there's only roll of the D10. The lower level player adds 20 to their score. So the players roll:
Level 1, D4 rolls: 3, but adds 20 for being one level less, which gives: 23
Level 2, D10 resulting in 6.
The difference is 23 - 6 = 17, and the winner is the second player, whose total is lower.

[Andrew Martin]

And what if one character rolls a critical and the difference ends up being 35! That's a lot of facts to narrate.

I'd also remove criticals and fumbles as well. They're just deprotagonising to players who suffer the effects of an NPC's critical or who roll a fumble themselves.

To reduce the size of the differences, I'd have each level difference being a second chance, instead. So a player with level 4 at D10, versus a second player with level 3 at D12, would roll two D10, and choose the best result, while the second player just rolls one D12.

Or let each player roll one die each, and the highest level allows that player to reroll either their own die or their opponent's die a number of times equal to the difference. So with the first player at Level 4 with D10 and the second player at level 1 with D6, both players roll 1 die each (D10 for player 1; D6 for player 2). The first player has 4 - 1 = 3 reroll oportunities. For example, player 1 rolls D10, gets: 9 and player 2 rolls D6 and gets 1. Player 1 spends a reroll opportunity and player 2 has to reroll and gets, say, 4. Player 1 then spends another reroll and rerolls their own D10 and gets, say, 3.

Just off hand, have you ever come across anything that dealt with armies of thousands?

War game systems and war game campaign systems. I've got a few on my hard disk; some are good, some are bad, some aren't available on the internet any more; and some deal with Eastern or Japanese medieval settings. I've found that most conventional RPG systems dealing with large battles are very easily broken by gamist players.

[Akuma Kyo]

eef,

Andrew is righ. I know that 2d10 traditionally means 2 x d10 (roll two d10's or a d10 twice) but in this system the number before the die represents the level and has nothing to do with the number of rolls. Confusing, I know, sorry-I did think of writing it other ways; d10 (2), 2-d10 etc. but it just didn't look as neat as 2d10.

I'd also remove criticals and fumbles as well. They're just deprotagonising to players who suffer the effects of an NPC's critical or who roll a fumble themselves.

I like the critical success (hate fumbles, always have) because as eef pointed out-when two players are of equal ability e.g. both are d6's then the margins are always negligible. I liked this, however, coupled with the critical success-very cinematic effect-opponents of equal skill with blood soaked bandages, cuts, bruises, scratches and sweat, but none the less fighting at there max capacity (usually the climatic scene near the end of the film), dueling away for ages, then suddenly a breakthrough-the protagonist manages to make the final blow and suddenly it's all over.

But I see that you are going a different direction with it and yes it could just as easily be the antagonist with the critical.

To reduce the size of the differences, I'd have each level difference being a second chance, instead. So a player with level 4 at D10, versus a second player with level 3 at D12, would roll two D10, and choose the best result, while the second player just rolls one D12.

Or let each player roll one die each, and the highest level allows that player to reroll either their own die or their opponent's die a number of times equal to the difference. So with the first player at Level 4 with D10 and the second player at level 1 with D6, both players roll 1 die each (D10 for player 1; D6 for player 2). The first player has 4 - 1 = 3 reroll oportunities. For example, player 1 rolls D10, gets: 9 and player 2 rolls D6 and gets 1. Player 1 spends a reroll opportunity and player 2 has to reroll and gets, say, 4. Player 1 then spends another reroll and rerolls their own D10 and gets, say, 3.

This doesn't quite work. You spend all your hard earned points upgrading from a d20 to a d4 to then go to 2 x d20's? I would rather stick with a d4 then roll a d20 twice. The odds are much better with the d4 aren't they?

Your idea can still be done though. Some people use this in the Window to advance while still remaining in the step ladder. You go from d30 to d4, after d4 you get +1 that is d4+1, then d4+2, d4+3 etc..
So Opponent A is d4+2, Opponent B is d12, Opponent B is reduced 2 steps (d16 -> d20) so now rolls with a d20. In another example Opponent A has d4+5, Opponent B has d4+2, the difference in the 'bonus die' is 3, so Opponent B (because he is lower) has his d4 reduced 3 rungs down the ladder to d10 (d6 -> d8 -> d10). Now Opponent A rolls a d4 vs Opponent B's d10.

I could do this OR something I was considering today, on your suggestion,  dropping the margins and going with this; reduce the total victory to 10, 10 or more is a complete victory anything less is negligible. Now if the player has a minor victory over the NPC e.g. a difference of 8 the GM could have the NPC consider the "fight or flight" response. And consequently the PC's could do this too-especially if the the NPC's dice are hidden-a margin like this might scare the PC's into a retreat. Whatever, the point is there are only two outcomes-complete victory or not.

I've found that most conventional RPG systems dealing with large battles are very easily broken by gamist players.

Poo. I was hoping that someone had written a chess-like wargame, a game with total replay value that can't be broken-just like chess.

Andrew, the link to rebol in your posts doesn't work - internal server error. Also a lot of the game links at your site give a 'file not found' error.

[Andrew Martin]

Andrew, the link to rebol in your posts doesn't work - internal server error.

Looks like the server may have failed.

Also a lot of the game links at your site give a 'file not found' error.

I must fix up my website generation software sometime.

[Andrew Martin]

I've found that most conventional RPG systems dealing with large battles are very easily broken by gamist players.

Poo. I was hoping that someone had written a chess-like wargame, a game with total replay value that can't be broken-just like chess.

It's still in my head. My current skirmish wargame has no ranges, no measuring (except in a very subtle way), no turns, no points, and is based on events rather than simulation. I must write it down.

[eef]

Thanks a lot, Andrew.  My apologies for being so dense.

The dice system is making sense now, and it is rather interesting.  However, be advised that the dice (if I have it right!) are going to give lots of weird results.

For instance, take 1d4 against 2d20.  1d4 has a range of 1d4+20 = 21-24, with an average of 22.5 2d20 has a range of 2-40 with an average of 21.  The range of results (ignoring criticals) is 2 - 24 = +22 for 2d20 to 40 - 21 = + 19 for the 1d4.  Since the 1d4 criticals 25% of the time and 2d20 criticals about 10% of the time, I'd actually give a slight edge to the 1d4 over the 2d20.  

On the other hand, I'd expect 2d12 (range 2-24) to crunch the 1d4 pretty easily.  So 1d4 is equal to 2d20 but is much worse that 2d12.

That may be a bug, that may be a feature.  Up to you.

[Akuma Kyo]

eef,

I'm not sure if your getting it. The easiest way to understand it is to forget about the levels for a moment. Let's pretend there are no levels, all we have are 7 dice from bad (d20) to good (d4). These are; d20, d16, d12, d10, d8, d6, d4.

Now the PC's and NPC's roll the dice in a contest, the lowest roll wins.
e.g. Akira has sword mastery of d16 vs a monster who has a fierce attack of d8. They both roll, Akira gets a 10, the monster gets a 2. The monster wins by a margin of 8.

O.K. Now let's say they are both at level 1. The dice remain the same. Akira rolls a d16 and the monster a d8.

Now let's say the monster is heaps stronger at level 2. The dice remain the same Akira rolls a d16 and the moster rolls a d8. The only difference this time is that Akira gets 20 added to his roll. So the results in this contest if the results are the same as ther previous example-Akira rolls a 10 (Now add 20 to this for being on a lower level) so he gets 30. The monster, as before, gets a 2. Now the difference is 28.

Does that make better sense?

Andrew, expect an email from me soon about S, Simple Skirmish etc...

For now I will go back to the lab and experiment with the ideas in this thread a bit further.

Thanks everyone for their input.

Best,
Akuma.

[Akuma Kyo]

Actually when it comes to actual play my mind subtracts the higher levels' roll from 20 then adds it to the lower levels rolls.

It's sounds complex but in reality it's very simple - looking at the dice your mind can just work it out in a second very naturally.

For instance imagine Character A level 1 gets a 5 against Character B at level 2 with a 10. The difference is 15.

FUNKY TABLE:

.....Level 1 ----------------| Level 2 ---------------------------------
<--10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 | 20 19 18 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7-->
.....................^ Character A rolls 5 ............................. ^ Character B rolls 10
..................... | <----------- the difference is 15 --------> |


O.K. just try rolling the dice and you'll see what I mean. :-)

[eef]

Yes I understand now.  My apologies for being spectacularly dense in this thread.  Thanks a lot for your patience.