Seriously Ambitious Project Idea

[Ben O'Neal]

Hey,

I'm feeling pretty ambitious and optimistic at the moment, which is kinda out of character for me, but I figure I'll go with it for a while. Here's what's been on my mind:

As things stand now, it looks like my game (Scarlet Wake) has potential. Most people who read it and who bother to comment on it seem to really like it. I'm assuming this means that either everyone who doesn't like it couldn't be bothered to comment on it, or that the game as a whole is pretty decent. I hope its the latter. But at any rate, I think it goes without saying that I'd like to see my game do well.

Now, I'm well aware that one major obstacle for this is the number of multi-sided dice needed. You need a bunch. I know that many gamers have impressive dice collections, but some don't. More importantly, non-gamers aren't likely to have any multi-sided dice, and expecting anyone to fork out $X for my game, and then another $Y on dice is pretty stupid. Whilst I'm not exactly expecting this to ever see the hands of a non-gamer, the dice issue wouldn't help if it did.

So the immediate solution that jumps to mind is to package dice with the game. I figure I'd need an ideal minimum of 5 of each die type needed (so that's 5d4, 5d6, 5d8, 5d10, and 5d12), preferably in sets of 5 different colours (cool colours like black, red, clear, purple, and green or orange). Some people might not appreciate paying more for a game just because it comes with dice when they already have plenty of dice, but I think this is outweighed by the burden of paying for more dice seperately. So if I'm going to sell dice with the game, I can't really just shrink wrap them to the book. So I'll need to package them together in a box. Also, I'd prefer not to have the dice just rattling about inside the box, because that's not very professional, so I'd want them to come in one of those black fake velvet dice bags, possibly with the games logo on it.

So while I've got a box, a bag of dice, and a rulebook, I might as well include a pencil with an eraser on it, and a pad of tear-out character sheets.

The box wouldn't need to be all that big, probably not much bigger than a few d20 rulebooks stacked on top of each other, because I'm looking into printing the rulebook at 6"x9" size instead of the standard 8"x11". I'm leaning towards a smaller book for a few reasons: it allows me to have colour interior pages; it makes the book thicker, so it feels like more value for money; it is a more standard size for non-gamers, which is important I think because as far as I can see, there's a general perception that bigger (not thicker) books are for children, while smaller books are more mature; and, it would fit in a box better and be easier to read.

So the box might ideally be 6"x9"x2".

I know I'm getting way ahead of myself here, but as I said in the beginning: ambitious mood.

So now to the point of this post: If I'm going to sell a package like this, I'll need to know how to actually organise it all:-

--Dice: where can I find somewhere that would sell me bunches of the dice I need, cheap enough to be economically viable to bundle with the game (IOW, >50c per die = not economically viable).
--Pad of printed tear-off character sheets: I'm assuming I could seek out a professional office stationary supplier for these, but I may end up having to find someone who can set up a distro in america, because I live in australia and shipping every order would cost a fortune. So if anyone has any experience with stationary printing in america, I'd love to know about prices and options or just somewhere I can start looking.
--Pencils: Again, I'd probably get these from the same place I got the character sheet pads.
--Printed boxes: I've got no idea where to even start looking for these.
--Black fake velvet dice bags, possibly with printing on them: Same as boxes, no idea. Of course, the bags don't have to be velvet, so long as they are sturdy and in a colour to match the package theme, and don't feel cheap.

If anyone at all could give me info about where I can get these things, how much they might cost (obviously not retail price), or just where I can start looking, that would be great. Alternatively, if you want to burst my bubble and tell me how there is no way in hell I could ever sell such a package at a competitive price and still break even when half of my product is sold, then go ahead and let me know before I get too attached to the idea. By "competitive price", I mean I'd be thinking of selling such a package at around $40US give or take for whatever it takes to break even at half my stock sold. Would this be too expensive for a game and package like this?

I might also mention that right now, I'd be inclined to just order the raw materials as listed above and put each package together myself (or paying someone in america to be my US distributor). But I might change my mind if I knew how much it would cost to get a proper distro to package and ship something like this. Whilst money will be a huge concern, I'd like to know how much I'll potentially need before I start seeking capital.

Told you I was feeling ambitious and optimistic :) Feel free to shoot me down now.

Any other thoughts are also appreciated.

Thanks,
-Ben

P.S. Advertising is obviously going to be crucial, but I don't want to start advertising until I have a product to advertise.

[mindwanders]

OK, I'm going to leave the comments on whether I think this is viable or sensible as a business idea to the people on the forum who actually have some publishing experience.

I've done a little digging and it occured to me that you should try and get companies from Australia or the pacific rim involved in this. The exchange rate from the oz$ to the us$ is pretty nasty from what I remember (and god forbid you have to buy from the uk). As long as you are willing to get around 1000 units made up you can probably find a company in china that will design and make the whole package for a price that is devastatingly lower than getting it produced in the US or the UK.

From what I understand, there's a lot more support and advice for small businesses to farm out thier production to asia in australia than there is here in the UK or the US.

Has anyone tried this and can either confirm or deny my theory?

[Malak]

One thing I can tell you is in the UK at least, and quite possibly elsewhere too the minute it gets put in a box it stops being a book (VAT free) and becomes a boxed game, and thus is VATable, which is quite a hefty price increase.

[daMoose_Neo]

Economically viable all depends on sources.
Personally, I think its a great idea- I'd love to be able to pick a game up and run with it (hence my own design with Twilight - I didn't NEED to include a d6 as almost everyone has one, but it makes life easier for the players. Plus, it must have some merit- Wizards has done D&D Starter kits as such a number of times).

http://spotlightongames.com/list/design.html

Check that out ^^ Nice list of resources for manufacturing your own game as well as publishing ^_^

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I guess I'm one of those "experienced" people who can weigh in on the viability or necessity of this idea.

... and for whatever it's worth, I think this is an expensive solution to a non-problem. As far as I can tell, objections to a particular game design based on the necessary dice are typically "excuse" objections from someone who's already disinclined to buy, significantly so.

My Life with Master sold more copies at GenCon this year than it did the previous year, the year of its release. It uses handfuls and handfuls of d4s. Dogs in the Vineyard, The Riddle of Steel, Universalis, Sorcerer, and The Burning Wheel all use tons of dice. We've all heard the line "But that looks like too many dice," from retailers, from role-players, from everyone.

... and we all sell tons of games and see tons of actual play.

The way I see it is this: here you are, hitch-hiking, and let's say that every single car that passes you by honks, about ten seconds after it passes. Just a little beep.

Do ya care? Nope. It's not a "customer."

Now shift the metaphor into its real proportions, which is to say that the cars who pick you up are already vastly sufficient to get you where you're going.

I do think that eventually a useful "gaming engine" object will evolve which will be suitable for many different games, much like a deck of cards is for the vast array of possible card games. But until that day comes (and it may come after "role-playing" is forgotten), requiring a wad o'dice as a secondary purchase does not seem to be a limiting factor.

Best,
Ron

[mindwanders]

OK,

A few people who know what thier talking about have had thier say now, so I'll address the subject of "is it necessary" now. Remember, I've never published anything so this is pure speculation and conjecture.

Basically, I think the reason that WotC and TSR used to do the whole boxed set idea was purely because of marketing. They wanted a game in toy shops accross the country, and in order for the buyers for the toy shops to be interested it had to look like a board game.

Likewise in order to get the preeteen, never roleplayed before market they were looking for, they needed to think they were getting a "normal game". Obviously, because it had to be a complete stand alone system (the places the kid bought the game probably didn't sell other rpg's never mind poly dice) so the kids could play it right out the box.

I should pont out that WatC and TSR didn't use this for the vast majority of thier games. It was only the entry level games (like D&D) that they did this for. The AD&D players handbook didn't come with dice, it didn't need to. It was being sold in comic stores that sold roleplaying books and dice anyway.

Unless you are trying to compete with WotC on the whole penetration of the mainstream toystore, I would leave the whole thing alone.

You might want to try a similar tactic to White Wolf however and have a  Scarlet Wake dice pack that has what you sugested and a dice bag. You ship that to the destributers alongside the game and offer a special promo price if people buy the dice set with the game.

The buyer spends more money on your products and get's everything he needs to run the game, and everyone from the retailer on up to you get's more cash in your pocket. Happyness all round.

[jdagna]

I need to look through my contacts, but I know of a dice wholesaler who was offering 500 dice (all same color/type) for $100.

Pencil-wise, there are a lot of places that do this (I've used Logo Expressions in the past).  We got 1000 pencils with one line of text on them for about $120 (including shipping).

These kinds of people can also do printed pads, though you might talk to regular print shops because their prices are sometimes better, and with more options.

Printed boxes are a nightmare, and I think they're a mistake.  What I'd look for instead are the sorts of plastic clamshell containers used to store miniatures.  They're available cheap, in many sizes (some large enough for this, I think) and you can then print inserts to use inside.  I have a source for these somewhere too, but it's buried in my notes from last year's GenCon.

Dice bags can be done in a variety of ways.  The cheapest would be to find a light-colored bag, create a stencil and then use a permanent marker to color in the logo.  I think you can get dice bags wholesale for $1-2 apiece in quantities of 100+, depending on size (probably on the higher end).  Alternatively, I know a company called Thread Impressions who can do something like this (in fact, the Button Men bag at GenCon was done by them), at a cost of about $2 apiece (I think... you should check with them if you're serious).  They have various breakpoints for discounts as well, and they're usually pretty small.  The advantage there is that they embroider the logo on, giving you color and class, without a lot of extra cost.

All that said, I'm not sure how well this kind of kit will sell given the price it will have to be.  I have heard that TSR lost money on most of their boxed sets, but they didn't realize until Hasbro did an accounting.  The labor to assemble these things is significant, as is stocking each little component.  Additionally, you have to be careful about transportation because boxes are more likely to crush than books or even blister packs.

Still, once you build a following there are many people who will buy whatever you put out (within reason).  I agree with Ron, that people will not change their minds about your game based on the presence of a boxed set like this.  However, if you can make a few extra high-value sales to existing fans, it may very well make sense overall.  You just have to see it as a collectible kind of thing for fans, not an evangelical attempt to rope in new people.

On the other hand, if it doesn't work, the pencils, pads and dice bags will still be worthwhile to you as giveaways if nothing else.

[Andy Kitkowski]

I'll leave out ideas of "good"/"bad" etc and just point out:

http://www.koplowgames.com/ , the second largest dice company.

They sell dice wholesale (retail cost) if you intially buy $150+ US worth of dice (this is pre-shipping).  Orders after that are $30+ per order, but the first order (to see if you're really into it, or just some jerkoff who wants to score stuff at wholesale) again must be above $150.

I found them pleasant enough to work with, too.

[Ben O'Neal]

Hmmm,

First, thanks to everyone for your replies. Lot's of good help and advice. I will have a look at all those links, and weigh in my mind the fun of playing around with this idea against the reality of how practical it really is.

But being that I haven't yet looked at the links and all the cool options available, I think Ron makes a strong case with those examples of other games. After all, we are a hobby market, and I don't know a single gamer who would object to an excuse to buy more trinkets, be they dice, miniatures, supplements, or revisions. As much as the idea of producing a cool boxed game seems to me now, I would likely be getting in way over my head, especially since I don't have the marketing muscle of WotC or TSR. Hell, I'm pretty sure that if monopoly was released into todays market, no-one would ever know about it.

I shall have to mull it over.

Thanks again for your helpful responses and links!
-Ben

[Walt Freitag]

Something else to consider is the consequences of shrink-wrapping or not-shrink-wrapping the box.

For the package you describe, shrink-wrapping will probably be necessary, as otherwise retailers and purchasers get very nervous about stuff missing from the box, either noticed before purchase (giving the retailer an unsellable unit to deal with) or not (leading to an angry customer). That nice dice bag and/or the dice would be a tempting target of pilferage.

But the shrink wrapping makes it impossible to look through the book before purchasing. (This is a moot point if you would shrink-wrap the book alone anyhow, but would you?)

- Walt

[Vaxalon]

The way a lot of childrens activities books deal with this is to create a package that is both a book and a box.  The back cover is actually a sealed plastic box, with a transparent cover so you can see all the nifty goodies inside.

The book (usually 64 or 96 pages, but occasionally larger) is in a fairly large format (11x11 or so) with all the instructions and stuff.