[Martial-Arts Horror Game] A Change of Heart about Magic

[Uccisore]

I just had either an extreme good, or extremely bad idea.  It feels very good to me right now, but I'm under the influence of Saw, House of 1000 Corpses, and Kill Puppies for Satan and similiar things that I like and have been recently reflecting on.  
    It seems to me that at heart, the magic system in my game (which you can read about in another thread) takes away a bit from my stated purpose: Horror through fear of agnozing, physical pain and death. There are elements of it that are crucial, but the idea of Acolytes throwing around lightning bolts and what-have-you is definately a square peg in the round holes I've set up.
     The crucial elements of the magic system are:
1.) People/things who are difficult to harm (i.e., cannot be harmed by ranged weapons, or sometimes any weapons at all), forcing hand-to-hand conflict.
2.) An Entity or Entities which grant power in exchange for performing evil services- that's how the above listed resistances are put into the game.
3) The Acolyte/Entity/Warlock set-up serves as the major source of antagonists in the game.

   So my question is, what happens if I cut out everything else? As in, the only 'powers' you get for performing services to the Great Being is these resistances- which would be expanded.  The Acolytes don't get sick, don't age quickly, are harder to hurt, heal quickly, and so on, with ever-increasing hardiness based on how long they have been in the service.  All the 'powers' are very subtle, very visceral, very non-flashy.  In return, the services performed are very visceral as well- relating to the maiming and killing of people and animals in very extreme ways, think Se7en.
    The Great Beings take a severe back-stage; no more summoning of grisly demons, or hardly any obvious magical effects at all, just whisperings and dreams in the minds of the Acolytes. As a matter of fact, with only one kind of power/reward, there's only a need for one Great Being, though he may be interpreted in various ways. It may or may not even have a personality, or goals of it's own. The possibility for Satanic overtones is obvious  At the very least, it allows for Antagonists that are truly, obscenely evil, instead of the bombastic, Darth-Vader style of evil I feel I might be setting the game up for otherwise.
    The result of all this? To the outside world, the Acolytes seem like hard-to-kill serial killers with a habit of forming cliques or cults.  It is only from the Acolytes own point of view that they are sorcerers performing magic. The PC's are special because to some degree, they have figured out that there are people out that there is something supernatural going on- perhaps seeing a body get up and walk out of a morgue, or a killer take way too many bullets and keep running.  Once again, the primary risk to the PC's is getting gutted by a sword or meat-hook, instead of being eaten by a monster or blasted by a magical doom-bolt. This gives more justification and emphasis on the brutality of combat in the game.
  There are sacrifices here- the interesting conflict of learning magic to combat magic is completely gone, as is the 'War in Hell' spiritual politics of this demon working against that demon.  However, I think this approach makes serious gains if the theme of the game is visceral, physical horror.
So, what all do you think of this approach vs. the old one?

[xenopulse]

Honestly, I like it better. But I am much more of a non-flashy horror fan. I agree that if you're going for the dark horror, flashy magic might ruin that. It'll definitely be a different sort of game.

You could have some subtle magic that's not directly related to combat, such as persuasion, hauntings, curses, secrets...

There are sacrifices here- the interesting conflict of learning magic to combat magic is completely gone

Maybe only transformed. It seems to me that you'll have people with personal reasons to gain power, maybe vengeance against someone else who is powerful and killed someone close to you, or feeling like you want to protect the world. In either case, you still need to make pacts with the dark side if you want to gain power, right? In the case of vengeance, for example, you might not care at first that you're strengthening demons in exchange for power to fight your own nemesis. But through that, you'll be pushed to perform some things that might make you someone else's nemesis in turn, and so the demons' influence over the world constantly rises...

I like it.

[Uccisore]

You could have some subtle magic that's not directly related to combat, such as persuasion, hauntings, curses, secrets...

    I think I might.  The important thing is to stick only to powers which could be explained by luck, intuition, or skill if someone wasn't really paying attention. You should have to observe a killer for a long time before you realize that they can see all too well in the dark, or that they somehow always know to hide in the place you won't look, or so on and so forth. The whole 'can't be hurt' should be the most glaringly obvious supernatural goings-on.

In either case, you still need to make pacts with the dark side if you want to gain power, right?

   Yes, I suppose so- but the idea here is that the things the bad-guys are doing to get their power are far too vicious and horrible for the PC's to consider- at least, not without changing the scope of the game considerably.  I do like the idea of the magic creeping in by accident, though- like, perhaps once you've killed your umpteenth psycho, there's potential for the lines between you and the bad-guys to blur.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I totally like this way better. I always thought your magic in the original writeup was another RPG trying to horn into the picture.

Also, are you familiar with the game Dread? Highly recommended, for some comparison with your current notions.

Best,
Ron

[FzGhouL]

Why not make some magic based on things that are meant to drive characters to insanity? Magic that creates illusions, blood manipulation, etc. that would seem to still be creepy, and give room for some cool magic. I guess?

[Uccisore]

Magic that creates illusions, blood manipulation, etc. that would seem to still be creepy, and give room for some cool magic.

It's hard to explain why I don't want that...even if the magic is extremely creepy and evocative, I still am thinking it works against my goals.  Here, read what I say to Ron:

Also, are you familiar with the game Dread?

    Nope, hadn't heard of it before now. I've just finished reading a few reviews.  The feel of it seems very similar to what I'm going for, I plan on reading whatever I can find about it to see how the material is handled.  But where Dread sounds like it's full of worm-monsters, hellfire, and drooling maws, I'm now picturing my game being filled with rusty bailing wire, broken glass, and bloody mattresses. Not that I have anything against drooling-maws: Cthulhu is my favorite game ever, which is part of the reason I want my own game to be clearly distinguishable from it. The supernatural forces are going to be pushed back to mere enablers- not the Powers that Be. If the players meet monsters, they ought to be people who's behavior is so extreme that it's impossible to think of them as human.
    One thing that my game might have in common with Dread that I don't want, is the 'one trick pony' aspect that Dread has according to the reviews.  Right now, the way I'm picturing my game feels more like a single campaign in some other game than a full game setting of it's own. I got that feeling from Dread as well, though as I said, I've only read reviews and not the game.

[FzGhouL]

Ah I see..Interesting/cool. :)

So, no magic then? Or just no players having magic, and suppernatural will be in the backdrop, like, against the players?

[Ron Edwards]

Heya,

Bailing wire and bloody mattresses? Oh, totally. I get this. And yeah, the whole idea of spells slinging around is just outta there.

Let's get back to the stuff you really wanted ... martial arts? What sort of martial arts, in visceral terms? I'm getting the vibe that high-flying wuxia really isn't the point either, nor snap-and-crackle Mortal Kombat.

We're talking more bunched-fingers-to-the-throat stuff, dislocated shoulders, deadly-stare stuff, right? Early Steven Seagall? Or even Sonny Chiba?

Best,
Ron

[daMoose_Neo]

For a "mystic" element, check out the movie "The Nineth Gate"- with Johnny Depp. The whole thing is concerned with satanic powers and "Dark Magic", but it never once comes center stage. Its a very real world, very real people, with...coincidences...happening. A strange blonde haired woman with green eyes who always shows up and saves the day, an employer who knows way to much, as though he's looking over your shoulder even though he's a continent away. This fits more with your "dreams and whispers" element than other, flashier magic.

[Uccisore]

What sort of martial arts, in visceral terms?

   More Zatoichi or The Seven Samurai than anything else, I suppose- two people stare each other down, waiting for 'the moment', then after a brief flurry of movement, one is on the ground holding his insides in.  Now put that into the context of Texas Chainsaw Massacre- one combatant is a big freaky guy who can break necks with his bare hands, and the other is a cop using a two-by-four he found on the ground.
   To take it outside of martial arts a moment, I'd also like to be able to simulate the knife-fight from Saving Private Ryan, if you know the one I mean. The whole idea here is that hand-to-hand combat is ugly, terrifying and usually fatal, and you have to do it anyway.
   

   

For a "mystic" element, check out the movie "The Nineth Gate"- with Johnny Depp.

The level of mysticism in the Ninth Gate is probably about as far as I'd go with the mysticism in this game, so it's a good example in that sense.  A better one would be the last 10 minutes of House of 1000 Corpses, where the last two antagonists met aren't doing anything supernatural per se, but they are so f'ed up that you feel like you're seeing something supernatural anyway.

Or just no players having magic, and suppernatural will be in the backdrop, like, against the players?

   Oh, it's magic, just not how we're used to thinking of it. Picture Jason from the Friday the 13th movies, and picture that the reason he can't be killed is because he dedicates his murders to Satan (in the guise of his mother, in this case).  Would you consider that magic?  I personally can't picture running a game where the characters dabble in it themselves, but I suppose it's not out of the question if a different GM and players have the stomach for it.

[Brendan]

I can imagine the players using the concepts of magic against their enemies in desperate circumstances, even if they don't have a taste for grotesque role-playing.  I find myself thinking of the ending of Neil Gaiman's American Gods, when (SPOILER) Laura stabs an ancient spear through herself and into Loki, and says "I dedicate this death to Shadow."  She's using the bad guys' power against them at a high cost to herself.  (END SPOILER)

I think that kind of last-chance opportunity to use magic could make for some excellent player choices.

[Uccisore]

I think that kind of last-chance opportunity to use magic could make for some excellent player choices.

I really liked that aspect of my previous magic system, so of course I'd like to work it into this one if I can.  The hurdles seem to be:

   A) The players coming to know that there really is such a thing magic, much less how it works, seems much more unlikely.
   B) I'm no longer sure that just anyone can benefit from magic.  The way it feels right now, the Evil Forces approach someone who has already demonstrated themselves to be a consumate psychopath, and offer power for them to increase and intensify their behavior. In other words, you become evil first, which gets the attention of the Evil Forces.  That turns the old magic system on it's head.
  In the end, PC manipulation of magic will probably be no more than discovering and exploiting weaknesses in the psychos: the invulnerability rules I set up beforehand where some psychos can only be hurt by bare hands or weapons soaked in warm blood are still in effect, and that sort of thing allows for the example you gave, at the very least. I don't think I want PC's themselves to ever be bullet-proof or be able to smell fear from 50 yards off.
    All of that said, I have considered the idea of violently killing one or several supernatural psychopaths having certain supernatural consequences/opportunities on it's own, though I don't want anything so crude as 'kill 10 psychos, become bulletproof'.