Exploratory D&D

[Ron Edwards]

Matt,

As a real quickie note here, I don't recommend killing off the mother NPC. I suggest that doing so would communicate to the player that such personal connections were, in fact, not important and that taking them seriously is a waste of time - the precise opposite of the message you would like to send (if I read your post correctly).

Best,
Ron

[Matt Gwinn]

As a real quickie note here, I don't recommend killing off the mother NPC. I suggest that doing so would communicate to the player that such personal connections were, in fact, not important and that taking them seriously is a waste of time - the precise opposite of the message you would like to send (if I read your post correctly).

I don't think I will for just that reason.  I do want to prove to her that she's alive, but I need to do it in such a way that he doesn't immediately assume its an illusion or a trick of some kind.  Any suggestions?

,Matt

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Matt,

Again, this is where personality and preference differences are going to make it hard for me to help ... it seems to me that by saying ...

"I need to do it in such a way that he doesn't immediately assume its an illusion or a trick of some kind"

... you are proposing an impossible goal: to specify how another person will interpret your action.

It seems to me that the goal (if I'm reading this whole thread right) is to have the player actually give a shit about the character and his mom, and that, frankly, is not something you can "make" happen. I suggest that by killing the mom, you would be making it impossible (which is why I suggested not doing that), but I also suggest that the best you can do is make it possible, as opposed to "making" the player do it.

Anyway, so, I'd just be blunt. Have the player find out that his mom's alive, in terms that seem to you to be pretty straightforward. How much he cares, i.e., whether he cares enough to find out if it's a "trick" or whatever, is up to him.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Gwinn]

It seems to me that the goal (if I'm reading this whole thread right) is to have the player actually give a shit about the character and his mom, and that, frankly, is not something you can "make" happen.

Actually, I think he does care, but lacks the skills necessary to project that through his character.  When he found out the mother had been kidnapped he cared - I could see it in his face.  The problem is that he didn't know how to react.  He's been in hack and slash mode for so long he simply shut down when presented with something else.  I was hoping that someone could enlighten me with an nidea on how to get past that resistance.

As far as not being able to make someone care about an NPC, I don't think that's entirely true.  Advertiser and journalists do it every day.  I've taken enough communications and advertising classes to know that you can convince people of damn near anything with the right tools.  How are roleplaying games any different?  If a cult leader can convince a hundred people to commit suicide I should be able to get a gamist to care about an NPC.

,Matt

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Matt,

Are we discussing your upcoming game or are we arguing about something? I believe I may have hit a nerve with my comment about "making" people feel or think things. As you are neither an advertiser armed with mass media, nor a cult leader armed with a cult, I suggest that your points about them do not apply to your situation as GM. Let the nerve tingle (if it did in the first place) and let's stay on track.

To stick to specifics, I will take it as given that the player is at least capable of caring about what's going on. I submit again that your best bet is to provide any evidence, as good as you can make it, that the character's mother is alive and needs him. It also might be good to provide some retroactive information that makes the mom a more interesting NPC in general.

If that point is understood, then I'm done with this thread until next time, unless another point of inquiry is raised.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Gwinn]

Are we discussing your upcoming game or are we arguing about something? I believe I may have hit a nerve with my comment about "making" people feel or think things.

I don't think we're arguing.  Are we?  I think we simply have alternate views on what is and is not possible.  

As you are neither an advertiser armed with mass media, nor a cult leader armed with a cult, I suggest that your points about them do not apply to your situation as GM. Let the nerve tingle (if it did in the first place) and let's stay on track.

You're right, I'm not any of those things.  However, I am a GM armed with the Forge and was hoping our collective minds could come up with something.  I conceed that simply throwing an NPC out there isn't going to make a player care, but I honestly think that by putting the PC and said NPC in certain situations I should be able to elicit a desired effect.
If I gave this player a +5 long sword loaded down with special abilities I guarantee he'd care about it if I later took it away.  What I want to know is, how can I make an NPC as important as a +5 longsword to this player.

It also might be good to provide some retroactive information that makes the mom a more interesting NPC in general.

That's a good idea.  I've already introduced one flashback scene for another character (which I think is a first for this group) and it was accepted.  I'll set something up for this character aswell.

Thanks Ron,

Matt

[Valamir]

If I gave this player a +5 long sword loaded down with special abilities I guarantee he'd care about it if I later took it away.  What I want to know is, how can I make an NPC as important as a +5 longsword to this player.

Thats a very good question.  One that I think may be so taken for granted by folks here that we lose sight of the basics.

I've used a few techniques myself in this regard, and while I've had some good successes am probably not the best expert on how to make an NPC compelling enough for a player to care about them the way they'd care about that +5 longsword (I remember well my days of "screw mom, give me that kick ass sword").

But I'm sure there are some folks out here who have techniques they use to accomplish precisely that.  Thats a topic worthy of a thread all by itself.

[hardcoremoose]

Okay, this is odd, one, because I know the people involved, and two, because I just made a connection between this and the discussion going on about WYRD.

I've been agonizing over ways to make Tragedy signifcant in WYRD and I keep coming back to the idea of mechanical reinforcement.  Make it actually do something in the game.

My solution to Matt's problem?  Make a +5 Mother.  Seriously.  

This idea is all over the narrativist designs - Trollbabes and whatnot - so why not carry it over to Gamist design as well.  Make the relationships matter by giving characters bonuses when those people are the scenes, or when they can invoke those relationships.  If that's what matters to the player, don't waste your time trying to make him care about something he isn't interested in - give him what he wants.

I can see it now: +3 Vorpal Girlfriend of Holding.  Kicks ass.

- Scott

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Matt,

You have stated the mom/sword question beautifully. Here're some threads that might help ...

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=202">Hooking the players
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=345">PC/NPC emotional bonding

Best,
Ron

[Valamir]

Heh, that's beautiful Scott...with thinking like that you'll make a great Universalis player :-)

But seriously, the idea isn't really all that bleeding edge that it couldn't work in D&D.  Pendragon Passions had the ability to call on the power of relationships to boost other skills (usually involving sticking someone with a pointy stick), and that is pretty solidly old school

In fact, during one brief episode of insanity where I had toyed with the idea of converting Pendragon to D20 (...I got better...) I had noted how easily things like Passions could work in the new D&D rules.  That might be something to consider as a mechanical aid.

[contracycle]

I do like the +5 Mom... but I'm a big believer in the mechanical enforcement of setting/genre values.

One thing that concerns me in regard this specific example - is "mom" a character, or a McGuffin?  Has mom spent all game time off screen so far?  If so, she's just a notional concept - neither the player nor the character have a relationship with "mom", they only know that they have a notional relationship with "a mom".

Thus, if I were establishing this scenario I would make sure to bring mom on stage a few times, to walk and talk and basically take on a specific rather than generic identity.  So reinforced, the dilemmas to which the NPC is exposed will have greater resonance for the PC.

What is it about mothers anyway?  Why this particular realtionship?  Probably becuase it is arguably the most intimate - if nothing else, every square inch of you has been inspected, washed and handled by your mother.  Play this up - bring on mom to make embarrasing ancedotes about their early, early youth.  Have mom ruffle his hair, adjust his collar, all on autopilot, without thinking, prefereably while there is someone the character is romantically involved with present.  Reinforce the intimacy of their off-screen relationship with symbolic on-screen acts.

Lastly, players are much more motivated by personal decision that either the carrot or the stick.  Therefore, in the spirit of grand illusionism, it might be plausible to have, say, the players stumble upon the artifacts of a kidnap victim, only to find that one of said artifacts is clearly and obviously recognisable to a player character.  The reaction then is, hopefully, "my god they've taken my mother" rather than the dry presentation of a mission objective.  Another approach would be to have the charcter imprisoned somewhere accessible, but under official sanction of death.  Breaking mom out of prison, therefore, condemns everyone involved to permanent exile at the most optimistic, death at the least, and presents a major conflict of loyalties issue.  Mom does not need to be rescued, she needs to be cleared, or the characters face the prospect of attending their own mothers beheading.  Would you want to be in that crowd, to share a last glance?  Watch them while they think about it... and then show them the headsmans axe.

Anyway, most of these ideas would not be consistent with one another, and probably have no direct utility in your situation, but that outlines my approach.

[Matt Gwinn]

Has mom spent all game time off screen so far? If so, she's just a notional concept - neither the player nor the character have a relationship with "mom", they only know that they have a notional relationship with "a mom".

She has been in one scene with the player so far, but we've only had 2 sessions.  

Thus, if I were establishing this scenario I would make sure to bring mom on stage a few times, to walk and talk and basically take on a specific rather than generic identity.

I should have waited a bit on the kidnapping angle, but I was kind of desperate to get the player involved as something other than the being the guy that kills stuff.  To make up for my hastiness I intend to have a few flashbacks over the next few sessions.

Play this up - bring on mom to make embarrasing ancedotes about their early, early youth. Have mom ruffle his hair, adjust his collar, all on autopilot, without thinking, prefereably while there is someone the character is romantically involved with present. Reinforce the intimacy of their off-screen relationship with symbolic on-screen acts.

I've already done this somewhat.  In the one scene he had with her she kind of hassled him about forgetting about all this adventuring business and going back to school (he was trained in his youth as a blacksmith).

Lastly, players are much more motivated by personal decision that either the carrot or the stick. Therefore, in the spirit of grand illusionism, it might be plausible to have, say, the players stumble upon the artifacts of a kidnap victim, only to find that one of said artifacts is clearly and obviously recognisable to a player character.

That's a fine idea.  I'll have to come up with something for the other party members to find.

,Matt

[contracycle]

I've already done this somewhat.  In the one scene he had with her she kind of hassled him about forgetting about all this adventuring business and going back to school (he was trained in his youth as a blacksmith).

Fair enough, although I might be mildly concerned that its the wrong aspect of their relationship to play up.  Its the bit which speerates them, rather than that which binds them.  It certainly enforces the parental identity, but in order to evoke a sympathetic response I think would need to go for something more intimate.  Theres a possibility this was chosen because other player characters were present?  Stage one of those embarassing personal arguments  where an innocent third party is caught in the crossfire and has to decide whether they would draw more attention to themselves by leaving or sitting tight.  Anyway, the embarrasment is intended as a side issue to the intimacy of the subject matter.

If you are already under way, I guess it might be best to proceded in a fairly conventional way, use the whole exercise with mom as McGuffin to bring her on stage, and then use her after she has acquired an identity.  This means the whole thing has to end in such a way that her continued prominence is rationalised.  I think, anyway.