[TSOY] a slow start...

[Chris Geisel]

We just finished our first two-hour session of TSOY, played over IRC. I'm the Storyguide, and two of the players are long-time members of my old gaming group, playing over IRC for the first time (as am I). The third player is a friend that we've all gamed with several times in the past.

There was something off about the game tonight, and I think it's due to a combination of a muddiness with IIEE and my own failings as a SG. In any case, the two scenes we played lacked the sense of urgency or *zing* that I see in the examples of play on the TSOY Wiki.

My first stumbling block as a SG came when thinking about Key Scenes. Although we started character creation the previous session, two of the players didn't finish their characters until shortly before tonight's game. Even so, it wasn't clear to me if *only* Key scenes are called, or if players can call for scenes. I thought I remembered players calling for scenes in the Wiki, so I decided that anyone can call scenes.

The characters' and their Keys are:
-Gimlix, a goblin with the Key of the Mission: Retrieve the Mushroom of Life, and an Addiction to Eating Mushrooms.
-Grall, a goblin with Keys of Bloodlust and Revolutionary
-Iad, an elf with Keys of Eternal Question (Is Self-Knowledge acheived through Indulgence or Denial?) and Revolutionary.

The elf is dedicated to self-knowledge through indulgence, and Gimlix is obsessed with finding a "perfect" mushroom with magical powers, so I figured I'd introduce both of them to said mushroom, and let them compete to see who gets to experience it.

With two Revolutionaries on hand, I figured I'd stick them in the middle of a party of the Maldorite ruling class, and for added oomph, put the party in the ruins of one of the old cities (in tents), just in case I needed to bring in some Ratkin attackers for mayhem.

I'm giving all this as a "then I made this decision, then we did this" in the hopes that someone will spot the critical moment(s) where we missed something important about how to play TSOY, because even though we're all excited about the rules and a new style of play, something fell flat tonight.

So I set the scene: the Baron Creed is throwing a party for the who's-who of Maldor, in a tent city erected in the ruins of an old city. The highlight of the evening is to be a debauched orgy of pleasure featuring a mystery concoction from Ammeni, rumored to be the distillation of a rare mushroom. The elf has secured an invitation with an eye to the orgy, Grall infiltrated the kitchen staff (oh, his Addiction is sugar) to further the Revolutionary cause, and Gimlix has bluffed his way in as an expert in mushroom preparation.

The players are enthusiastically chatting IC and addressing me as an NPC who I used in some of the intro (Duval from the Wiki standing in), so I quickly call a scene in the kitchen, where Duval as the Baron's factor is bringing Gimlix to inspect the mushroom. Because it's the first scene and I want everyone to have a chance to jump in, I suggest Grall is working now. Iad's player suggests he's looking for booze (in the kitchen) before the party starts.

The first contest comes when Gimlix distracts Duval enough that Duval doesn't notice the other two characters follow them into the crypt where the mushroom is stored under lock and key. At that point, none of the characters even know each other, but I figured, let's keep it moving.

Then Gimlix's player really drives the action, and eventually he states an intent to convince Duval to leave him alone with the mushroom, ostensibly to prepare it for tonight. The interesting thing is that Gimlix's player got really into roleplaying the dialogue with Duval, to the point where I had to ask him "hey, are you showing an intent here? it seems like you're trying to get Duval to do something". Another contest between Duval and Gimlix, and the 'expert' is left alone in the storeroom with the mushroom, although Duval does manage to get some armed guards stationed outside.

I am ready to end the scene, but the other two players who have been trailing them through the crypt want to enter the storeroom and have a look at the mushroom. Grall, the revolutionary, is interested because he might be able to poison the Baron (or something similar). Iad is interested because it's magic powers are supposed to induce ecstasy. Gimlix just wants to be alone with the mushroom so he can devour it. So I say, sure, we'll start a new scene with the two of you entering the storeroom.

Cue much IC roleplaying, with the SG sitting on the sidelines except when they ask me to describe something about the room or the mushroom (actually a clump of inoki sized mushrooms). The players gradually get it that they can do anything they want, and it happens with no interference from me, until there's a contest of some kind. They get to know each other, seem to be enjoying it and then Iad snatches half the mushrooms. Gimlix tries to stop him and we have a contest. Iad wins (Athletics vs Scrapping) but Gimlix decides to let the matter drop and roleplay Gimlix's displeasure... cue more IC roleplaying... cue SG yawning...

I decide to kickstart things by having Duval show up outside. Gimlix yells at Duval for disturbing him until he leaves, so Duval does, but not before warning him not to mix the mushroom with black poiture (he doesn't say why). I didn't ask for a contest, just let him browbeat Duval so I could inject that bit of info... thought it might be good fodder later, I guess.

We're close to our time limit, so I start asking if the scene is over, or if not, what anyone wants to do. More IC discussion of what the three want until time runs out. Gimlix wants to poison everyone at the party, so they can rob them and make out like bandits (I guess since he got his Mushroom key fulfilled, he's reverted to the usual rpg motivation: loot). The elf says he wants to get to the party and "get his elven dick wet"... which I guess *is* part of his key of self-knowledge through indulgence. Grall, the revolutionary with bloodlust says right at the end that he doesn't want to kill everyone, but crippling nausea would be okay (this surprises me, given that he's a revolutionary with bloodlust).

And that was about it. What I really feel, looking back over this, was that I didn't do a good job of setting these characters up in explosive scenes where a lot was at stake. But at the same time, it doesn't seem like there is a lot at stake here... what am I missing?

Thanks in advance for any help. In spite of my complaints, it was still a lot of fun and we're all pretty excited for the next session.

[Chris Geisel]

Just curious, with so many views but no replies, am I breaking one of the Forge rules about AP posts and haven't realized it?

[Thor Olavsrud]

Chris, what's with all the IC dialogue that you were yawning at? If they're just talking at each other, and there's no conflict at play, why not just cut the scene right there and start with a bang somewhere else?

Two of the major tools at your disposal as GM are bangs and scene framing. Use them to drive things forward at an aggressive clip, and I think your problem may disappear.

Think about the way comic books and movies set scenes and resolve them. The good ones provide just enough information to make the conflict exciting, and then cut to the next scene when that conflict is resolved. They're 'tight.' They cut out the extraneous chatter because it's just filler.

So that has to be one of the major parts of your role as GM. You decide where scenes  start and when they're over. That's not to say the other players can't ask to extend a scene or to start a little earlier, but there should be a good reason for doing so. Phrase the scene openings and cuts as suggestions, and they shouldn't have any objections.

"We're going to start this scene in the Larder as Duval shows Grimlix the mushroom. Grall and Iad are outside the locked door, but might be able to hear through the door. Everyone cool with that?"

The players can and should call for scenes. You can even give them the power to frame and cut the scene for these, although you should still have the power to step in and request a change if things start to drag.

[Chris Geisel]

Gawd, what a great observation. At the time, I sat and watched the IC chattiness because the players were so absorbed in it, not wanting to interrupt what was clearly entertaining to them. But dammit if you're not right, what I need to work on is some Bangs for these characters.

If you've got time, I'd love some suggestions.

[Thor Olavsrud]

Hey Chris,

To really work up some ideas for Bangs, I think we need to know a little bit more about the players (and the characters). The Keys are a good start. But what do the players want? What do they like? Why did they make the characters they did?

Anyway, the bangs will help, sure. But from your description, it seems like this has more to do with scene framing. If the players are just talking to each other in character, and not addressing conflict, don't be afraid to cut the scene!  Move on to something with meat to it.

[Andrew Norris]

I felt really bad the first few times I shut off a scene of IC chatting by framing a new scene. It was awkward. But I talked to the players, and they saw what I was going for, and things were good.

Sometimes it's a matter of finding something they've said that's interesting enough to cut the scene, for suspense's sake. Sometimes the scene just starts to peter out, and you jump in and move things along with the next one.

If your comfort level's not high with this approach, try to get a group consensus about when it's okay to cut the scene and when the players really want a little extra time. I've found most people are pretty understanding if you take a few minutes to explain exactly why you're framing so aggressively. They'll see that it's to give them even more opportunities for interesting actions and dialogue.

[James_Nostack]

I think it's due to a combination of a muddiness with IIEE and my own failings as a SG... In any case, the two scenes we played lacked the sense of urgency or *zing* that I see in the examples of play on the TSOY Wiki

Shucks!  Chris, as the Storyguide for those examples, pleaes keep in mind:

* My players were off-the-hook crazy,
* I hadn't, like, actually read the rules
* the plot was entirely improvised

In other words: it's possible to have a blast playing TSOY even if you're a congenital idiot like me.

There were a couple of things going on there that worked in our favor, though I hadn't planned them (nor did I realize it at the time).

* All of the PC's were potential rivals.  This meant that every single player-player interaction was a contest to see who could exploit whom.  The players weren't on the same team, so they didn't huddle together to strategize.  They were in this thing to get their way, come hell or high water.

* All of the players played Narrativist (it seems).  They weren't making decisions based on what would be the most logical, or the most in character: they were deciding what would make the best story, and then retrofitting the character's reasoning process to undertake that action.  

* The players had Director Stance goin' and were pretty good at it.  They were creating all kinds of little details, and because they were comfortable doing that, they didn't need to spend ages formulating crafty plans: they could just declare, "Hey, you know, let's imagine we had a plan in place," and roll with it.

So basically that whole session was sheer dumb luck, from my perspective.  I'll try to give my two cents' worth of advice in a little bit...

[Chris Geisel]

James, I can honestly say that LOL is not just internet hyperbole here. :)

Thanks for the pep talk. So far I'd say the biggest difference between my game and yours, on reflection, is what you call Director Stance. One of the players is really excited by the idea that he can invent things, and I expect him to go wild the next session. The other two are getting it, intellectually, that they don't have to ask the SG, "what's in the room" and hope there's something to work with. I'm hoping they'll get into it when the other one goes nuts.

I did make one big mistake in that area last session. I was throwing out possible "entry points" for each of the characters, and for Gimlix, the mushroom loving goblin, I proposed that he'd scammed his way into the party as an expert distiller of mushroom potions. When, during play, it came out that Gimlix actually had no knowledge of mushrooms at all (beyond his craving), we rolled with it... but when the player wanted to convince an NPC to eat a poisoned mushroom, instead of telling him, "go for it", I said, "how does Gimlix know which of these mushrooms are poisoned?"

The player thought about it, backed off from his plan, and we went on with the game. In retrospect, that wasn't a very good way of encouraging invention.

On the subject of adversarial player characters, I expected these characters to go the same way, but I think they approached the game with the attitude of "well, we're the party", and so looked for ways of becoming cohesive.

Frankly, I thought it was pretty farcical when two player characters found themselves tailing Gimlix and the NPC into the mushroom larder, hoping neither one would give the other away. I'm a little worried that the last bit of IC conversation involved poisoning the party-goers and robbing everyone, but hopeful that since one character has the mushrooms, and the other character wants the mushrooms, we'll see some sparks at some point.

Information for Bangs:
Greg is playing Gimlix. Greg is the player I expect to do the most invention and improvisation. He's been chomping at the bit for this kind of game for a while, and he's a bit of a nutter when he roleplays anyway. I think Greg likes to exert power with his characters--the power to push NPCs (and GMs) around especially. In our D&D games he always seems to have the most devastatingly powerful character, and I know he enjoys tactical mastery when we play that game.

Gimlix is addicted to mushrooms. He also has the Key of the Mission: Retrieve the Mushroom of Life. I screwed up by not reading that Key closely enough, and handing the Mushroom to him in our first scene. I've asked Greg to think up reasons why the Mission isn't complete yet, and why this Mushroom is so important to Gimlix--especially what's at stake if he fails the mission. Gimlix is a sneaky con-man.

Jeremiah is playing Iad, an Elf. Jeremiah is definitely one of the big IC chatters (nothing wrong with that) in the game. I think he likes to pretend to be his character a lot. He used to DM our Vampire games, which had a lot of atmosphere but were fairly on rails. I get the sense that he's expecting me to move things along, but I know he's a good inventor, so I'm hoping he'll follow Greg's example.

Iad has the Key of the Eternal Question, and his question is "Can self-knowledge be attained through indulgence or denial?". At the moment Iad is interested in indulgence, spending most of his spotlight time smoking, drinking and talking about partying. Jeremiah is a lot like Iad in that respect. :) He also has the Key of Revolutionary. I asked him to describe how that works, since devotion to a cause seems tricky as an Elf who is devoted to self-discovery. He said something like, "In my dream, rules and restrictions are holding me back from self-discovery. Therefore, everyone I liberate is a step towards realizing the Dream."

I thought that was pretty damn cool. Iad is sorta like a Tolkien wood elf, plenty of nature abilities, high Aim, etc.

The third player is Blake. Blake's a long-time member of the D&D group that Greg and I used to belong to. He likes to make very efficient D&D characters, and also enjoys the tactical combat elements. His characters tend to be somewhat enigmatic--there isn't much they won't abandon if things turn difficult. I think Blake's a bit of a "turtle" when he plays D&D: don't give the DM anything he can use against you. He is really enthusiastic about TSOY, but I have no idea which part appeals to him the most.

Blake's character is Grall, a fat, spellcasting goblin addicted to sugar. Grall has Keys of Bloodlust and Revolutionary. His character is working in the kitchen staff, undercover for the revolution. Last session I think he was following Gimlix and the NPC with the idea he might be able to kill the NPC, who is the lackey to a Baron. Other than that, I haven't got much of a handle on him yet, although his character description mentions that he studied magic with a sorceror and was part of a goblin sapper brigade, but went AWOL when he saw how shabbily his fellow goblins were treated. As the session ended, Blake had Grall say he was opposed to poisoning the party-goers, but would be okay with making them all sick enough to rob.

Grall is probably the most interesting character in terms of his abilities and secrets. He has Secret of Contacts, Chameleon, Invisible Hand and Inner Damage. He's also got a lot of Illicit and Fighting abilities. At some point I fully expect to see Blake use Grall to utterly destroy some hapless NPCs who get in his way. From his character sheet, he seems like a Revolutionary Green Beret.

[James_Nostack]

Hi Chris, I've been meaning to post to this thread for the past week, but have never had time to read it in its entirety.

My recommendation is to look at people's Keys, and then create a few NPC's who either thwart, complicate, or too clumsily advance those keys.  If you can get one guy serving multiple functions, it's a little more elegant, but the point is, lots of NPC's who aren't necessarily combat adversaries for the players, but adversarial in terms of their goals.  (In a conflict resolution system like TSOY, you want people with opposing goals, not necessarily opposing tactics: simple tactical opposition, like fightin', isn't all that significant.)  

If the PC wants the Magic McGuffin of the Holy Kermuffin, make sure some NPC is a foil to this quest: either in terms of outright opposition, comedic counterpoint, religious rivalry, or an overeager acolyte who will screw everything up but is too pigheaded and politically connected to be browbeaten into submission.

That way when play begins to flag, and people are doing the whole IC talky thing, you can throw these NPC's in there to distract 'em.  

Of course, it would help if I followed this advice in some of my own games, but whatever: it's an advice thread, I'm allowed to be hypocritical.  I'm gradually realizing that a GM should not want his players to feel "balanced" or "comfortable" through the use of IC chattiness and over-planning.  Maybe it's just a pacing thing...

[Chris Geisel]

Thanks James... this thread has been helpful.