[breaking the ice] latest playtest

[Valamir]

<Squints really hard>

Do you mean to tell me that some retail store owner picked up a copy of a game that had been being distributed for free and started SELLING it at his store without asking permission and without sending any funds to the creator?

Granted the free plublicity and idea that the guy thought enough of the game to do it is pretty cool...but still...this seems rather profoundly...whats the word I'm looking for...ILLEGAL to me...

Is anyone else concerned by that?
Or did I completely misread what's going on...

[Andrew Morris]

Yeah, that's what it sounded like to me, as well. Which would, well...suck, even if Emily is okay with it. That just seems like a damn rotten thing to do, whether it's legal or not.

[Ben Lehman]

It is not illegal to sell an out of print book for more than its cover price, regardless of what the creator has to say about it.  It's called "collector's item."

I am totally amused that the first Forge game with such a mark-up is Breaking the Ice.

yrs--
--Ben

[Christopher Weeks]

It's not like he snuck into the Forge booth and made off with a box of them.  There is a single copy -- probably what he felt entitled to.  I have mixed opinions on it, but can easily imagine a person doing this and thinking "hey, they're paying $3.50 for my trouble of going to GenCon and getting it."  And you know...what's so wrong with that?  But I do get a chuckle over it because it seems cheesy in some way.  (And actually, I have no idea how many were originally there, but there's been a single copy there for a few months.)

[Emily Care]

The thought that occured to me was to be sure to put "FREE COPY" on playtest versions if I want to avoid this kind of thing. But I don't begrudge them any $3.50 they can get for it. If I had charged them a buck, it wouldn't be much different.  

It does bring up some odd questions though in this age of pdfs and print on demand. It would be very easy for people to make "alternative" print runs of games & books. That would certainly infringe copyright.

[MatrixGamer]

Did the free copy have "copyright to your name in 2004"? If it didn't and it is given out for free, that sounds to me like a perfect example of public domain. If it did have a copyright and they did this then they ripped you off but they did it in the printing rather than they taking of the free copy. That would make a civil mater. In that case they only get into trouble if you take them to court. Which I imagine they are banking won't happen.

If they are printing and selling your game (leaving your name and contact information on it) then they are doing more for you in terms of advertising that they are stealing for having done it without your permission. But if you don't fight the matter (with at least a cease and desist letter) then you weakening your copyright to later printings of the work.

At least that's my non legal oppinion. My dealing with the courts has mainly been in probation revocation, and child custody hearings.

Chris Engle
Hamster Press

[Ben Lehman]

Nobody panic.

Printing isn't going on.  It's just a resale of the text that was given away for free last GenCon.

Chris, copyright is ensured, at least in the US, whether or not you date the text and add a copyright symbol to it.  Anyone concerned with such issues should go to http://www.intelproplaw.com/Forum/Forum.cgi">an Intellectual Property Forum or ask a lawyer.

And, we're wildly off-topic.  Apologies, Emily.  Let's take this whole passel of copyright / printing / resale issues to another thread, probably in the Publishing forum.

yrs--
--Ben

[Ben Lehman]

Fascinating thing:

When I was talking to my mother about the game, she pointed out that Dan and Linda's courtship had *a lot* in common with the way that she and my father got together.  Which is interesting, 'cause Emily of course didn't know my family's old stories.

Food for thought...

yrs--
--Ben

P.S.  My mother, not a gamer, is really interested in the game, and would like to play it with some of her friends.

[Emily Care]

When I was talking to my mother about the game, she pointed out that Dan and Linda's courtship had *a lot* in common with the way that she and my father got together.  Which is interesting, 'cause Emily of course didn't know my family's old stories.

How cool!  Tell me which parts, some time.

P.S.  My mother, not a gamer, is really interested in the game, and would like to play it with some of her friends.

That's a great sign. : ) I hope the large amounts of dice aren't a huge hurdle for non-gamery folks.

edited 1 time to add:

(ps Ben, I took your advice & picked up a chessex box o'd6s this weekend.)

[Andrew Morris]

I agree that Breaking the Ice seems like a great RPG for non-gamers. After reading the actual play post, that was one of the first things that came to mind. I've already thought about who I can talk into playing it.

I do have a question for you, Emily. Have you had any experience with same-gender players? Specifically, does the game feel uncomfortable to two heterosexuals of the same gender, or, by extension, to two homosexuals of different genders? When I think of playing it with my female friends, it sounds fun. When I think of playing it with my male friends, I kinda squirm inside and think, "I really don't want to be that intimate with them." It seems to me that this game requires a level of inter-player trust similar to that which might actually be extended between a couple over the course of their first few dates. Am I wildly off base here, or have you seen elements of this phenomenon in others?

[Emily Care]

Hey Andrew M.,

I do have a question for you, Emily. Have you had any experience with same-gender players? Specifically, does the game feel uncomfortable to two heterosexuals of the same gender, or, by extension, to two homosexuals of different genders?

Tom & Jere's gaming group did some playtesting last fall with a group that did not break down along convenient gender/orientation lines. Their session got written up here.  The setting they chose, "Desperation Double Dating in the World of Logan's Run", was funny & fantastic, so I'm sure it allowed more emotional space for the straight male pair of players than something more serious would have done.

When I think of playing it with my female friends, it sounds fun. When I think of playing it with my male friends, I kinda squirm inside and think, "I really don't want to be that intimate with them."

I can understand that. I think that's part of the reason I wrote the game.  It gives a venue, for those who want it, to stretch a little in their interactions with others via rpg. Makes me glad I have been thinking to  move away from requiring anything about the players orientations to be complementary.  

It seems to me that this game requires a level of inter-player trust similar to that which might actually be extended between a couple over the course of their first few dates. Am I wildly off base here, or have you seen elements of this phenomenon in others?

The game is certainly not ill suited to flirting with another player. And I think that you could really bring up some pretty deep & revealing aspects of yourself within the structure. But it's not required. It is still just a game about falling in love, not the act itself.  My hope is that you would need to open up to whomever you play with, at least a little, but you're not out there & on the line as you would be on a date.

Unless, of course, you want to be. : )

best,
Emily

[Andrew Morris]

Their session got written up here.

Nice...so humor servecd as a sort of "sexuality incompatibility buffer."

And, to be clear, I'm not saying that the discomfort is necessarily a bad thing. When we step outside our normal boundaries, it tends to be uncomfortable.

All in all, I'm really interested in this game, and I'll have to try it out soon.

[Larry L.]

For some reason, I think I would be uncomfortable playing BtI with all guys. But if even one member of the opposite sex were involved, then I'd be cool. Establishment of a "co-ed" social environment or something, or maybe just a reality check on hand.

Although we have dabbled with superheroic dating...

[Andrew Morris]

Larry, I'm not sure I follow you. Are you talking about modifying the game to accommodate more than two players? Or have I missed that BtI already does that (I thought it was a two-player-only game).

[Larry L.]

Ahh... The Logan's Run Actual Play post was what initially attracted my attention to the game, so I guess I've still had four players in mind for how the game might play. I hadn't actually noticed the rules don't explicitly support double dating, but sure enough, you are right.

Such things will surely work their way in to a print edition, no?