[Burning Wheel] Duel of Half-Wits

[Keith Senkowski]

So this Saturday we finally got around to playing Burning Wheel Revised, and the only mechanical thing that occured was the Duel of Wits, which I got to participate in.  I have to say I was not too impressed with the Duel of Wits prior to game play and I'm still not completely convinced, but the whole process was filled with tension (the good kind).

My one reservation after using it the breaks in the "argument" to do it.  As each volley comes around, you got to stop, look at what each of you scripted, and then roll.  In our case, we had to keep going back to the book to see what each combination, like say a dismiss vs. a rebutal, entails, then spit out our shit, and then roll the dice.

I liked the fact that it stops the spinning of wheels and forces short statements from the players, as well as set a condition for victory.  I'm still bugged by the scripting for it, 'specially when there is a wash situation (say a rebutal vs. a rebutal).  It doesn't feel organic enough in that regard.  Felt more like a moderated debate, with us looking to one of the other players for rules clarifications.  I was half expecting someone to say, "We are all now dumber for hearing you talk.  I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul."

Oh, and trying to fork shit in is a bit of a pain in the ass.  I found myself scrambling to try and drop in shit (like poetry or waste-wise), which kinda slowed down the action a bit.  That may just be a me problem.

So, on the whole, I dig it and think it is an interesting step in a different direction, but I still got a few issues with it.

Keith

[Luke]

was that your first Duel of Wits?

-L

[Keith Senkowski]

Luke,

Yeah, so I realize that over time the rules will come all natural.  It still felt a little stilted in action, if ya get me?  I like the overall result and it was fun, but something seemed a little off...

Keith

[Luke]

yeah, it's an odd little ritual to start. One point that I wish I had made more clear in the rules is that no matter what your actions are, keep talking! You are still supposed to play out the Rebuttal vs Rebuttal as RP, but nobody's losing any dice to their BoA.

When I encourage players to keep talking like that, to play through, the mechanics flow a lot better. Because we're just trying to back up your intent with some solid mechanics. And trying to get people to commit to a strategy in a very fluid (and cheating) environment.

-L

[Keith Senkowski]

Luke,

Ahh, we missed the rebutal v rebutal.  We just marked it as a wash, like a hesitation.  The idea I think being that we were both waiting to be attacked and when neither jumped, we hesitated.

We did keep talking for everything else though and then threw the dice.  The stategy just seemed a little forced, cause I really saw little reason for my character to not make either rebutals, points or a dismiss as a coup de grace.

I have to say the part I like the best is that it forces you to make short statements.  It keeps people from going on a whole shakespearian rant about how wonderful their point is.  It also gave me a chance to finally use my Oratory skill, but that brings up a question...

Do Duel of Wits count towards improving my skills?  If not, doesn't it now limit the opportunities to do so?

Also, how would you handle swaying a crowd with this?

Keith

[Luke]

Of course the DoW counts toward advancement! Highest Ob test in the Duel is logged toward advancing your dueling skill. Other skills and even Will can be tested in the Duel, too. It's a test bonanza!

I do use the DoW for important crowd scenes. And I use the basic mechanics -- nominate a primary heckler or doubter and add in a slew of helping dice for the crowd. And I'll often use the Big Deal rules so the crowd has a big BoA.

-L

Edit: "The stategy just seemed a little forced, cause I really saw little reason for my character to not make either rebutals, points or a dismiss as a coup de grace. "

What did you mean by this?

[Keith Senkowski]

Luke,

What I meant was, Obfuscate seemed like a wasted action.  Same with Avoid.  I just couldn't see a reason for using them.  I mean, why would I when rebutal allows me to counter and attack (I split my dice, but as a socially oriented character that wasn't a problem at all), point works like strike, and dismiss is really effective at going in for the kill.

Then again I take a similar stance with combat.  Typically I am striking and pushing almost every volley.  Sometimes I take a hit, but I found that it is better overall to hit hard to end the combat...

Keith

[Luke]

Awesome! That's exactly why I design mechanics like this. So you as a player can choose a strategy which suits you.

Personally, I'd just humiliate you with a few Avoids and a well-placed Feint, but that's just me.

-L

[O. Rodriguez]

In honesty, I was simply excited to pull it out and see how it would work within our group.

It's definitely a kind resolution mechanic that I've never been exposed to before. It forces you to "game" a portion of role playing that has classically, in my experience, been the least effected by whatever system you're running. Most other games I've played it's GM fiat that decides what happens in these situations.

Being a neophyte with to the DoW did indeed interrupt the flow of these arguments. It will get faster as we get comfortable with it. I can see Keith's hesitation about it.  In a true debate I can counter or rebute your point as soon as you make your point and not wait 2 volleys later. It breaks up the flow of it. So it may not be the most "realistic" mechanic. Then again most combat mechanics breaks up the flow of combat too and that's not very "realistic" either. It did provide tension at the table, like the other parts of the system, and that at the very least is a good thing.

We did keep talking throughout the volleys and roll after everything was said. Poor Keith did have things he could fork in, so he's trying to get a little poetry, history and waste wise in there to get extra dice. But I'm still not clear how we'd play out a rebuttal vs. rebuttal. Any suggestions?

Oscar

[Yokiboy]

Hello Keith,

I love the title of this thread.

"We are all now dumber for hearing you talk.  I award you no points, and may god have mercy on your soul."

I also enjoy your writing style, and feel that perhaps I should give your game another consideration.

I like seeing how much attention the DoW rules in BW are garnering, it is one of the game's aspects that I'm most looking forward to reading, as I finally succumbed and ordered the game today.

TTFN,

Yoki

P.S. Keith, that CR link of yours is broken.

[Keith Senkowski]

Yoki,

I can't take credit for that line.  It is from the movie Billy Madison, and possibly one of the very few moments in that movie that are actually funny.  However, if you are going to take a look at CoS, wait a few weeks.  The revision should be available then.  And thanks for the heads up on the link...

Keith