My Brain Scored a Critical Hit on Reality!

[Furcifer]

Now that I've got your attention, I'll go on at length about something AND BEND YOU TO MY WICKED WILL!

Actually, no.  On with the content.

Last night, I was reading the GNS model, and I was looking over some discussions about the 3 aspects, read a thread about "elements" (egads!), etc etc.  So, there was a lot of information to process.  Probably too much.

Just recently having learned the virtues of Narrativism, and being a purist gamist at heart, I began to think.  "Hmm, how can I effectively combine these two aspects?"

And then it hit me!

A system whereby you actually have 2 characters.... a mortal, and a god who looks out for that mortal.  The god would be played as you, where as the mortal is trying to accomplish something.

The game works either competitively, or as a team (with NPC gods as part of the pantheon).

The idea is you get a set number of points to spend amongst the two characters.  Gods get to do things like: throw powerful effects into the game, change plot elements directly through intervention(this is a biggie), and interrupt other godly doings by calling a "vote".  Their stats are basically power levels which are depleted to perform these functions.  However, by producing "interesting" (by vote) plot devices, some energy can be restored.

The mortal is much like a standard character.  He has body, soul, and mind stats, almost always used for stat contests.  In fact, all checks are stat contests.  Gods may intervene in this.

Standard conflict sequence goes:

Scene is set
Mortals declare their actions
Gods declare their actions

Etc.  Note that players are bound to their action UNLESS a god warns them of incoming influence.  This, of course, costs power.


I'm sure you get the picture.  I've only had this idea for a few hours, so bear with me.

In a COMPETITVE game, the gods and players are against one another.  Each chooses an alignment, and "winning" is accomplished by achieving this goal.  Votes are used against each other, and there will probably be a tendacy to form alliance amongst the gods.  The GM controls all NPCs.

Non-sequitur Note: player characters are NOT effected by godly magic, aside from changes to die rolls (the godly intervention DISASTER!, for example, makes all dice in one roll come up as ones).

I think this game would appeal to the Gamist (a fair arena whereby a character beats either the odds or each other, making the best combination by spending points is a major factor).

I also think this game would appeal to the Narrativist.  (An open-ended rules quick system which allows for direct intervention in elements of plot, fate, and the broad-scale environment, where there are rewards for interesting behavior).

So, anybody like this?  Or even better, anyone want to take this up as a project?  I want to make it free.

[Furcifer]

No opinions?  Well, that's okay.

I went ahead and came up with an Alpha rules set over the last day or so.  I'll list off the problems.

Creation Magic not yet determined
Illusion Magic not yet determined

"pious" skill may be too powerful... I'm not sure though.

Examples for Godly Effects and Fates may be to vague to serve as standards of power.

Combat may either be too easy or too difficult to hurt somebody... not sure of the probabilities.  May change it.

Anyways, those are the problems I know about.  Does anyone want to try?  You need to be able to add up at most 6 dice (d6 only) in your head.  The rest of the math is easier, in case you're worried about bogged down play.

Throw me a bone, here!

[Andrew Martin]

I'm interested in learning more about it, as I like the idea of god games.

I also like the order of actions. Have you considered spheres of influence for the gods? For example, one god might be the sky god, another in charge of battle, and so on.

[Sidhain]

It's an interesting idea (I for some reason keep thinking of the strange little PSX RPG Persona when I read your post) but sort of backwards...

As too your magic problems how different are Creation and Illusions? One is basically a creation that lacks some reality (or one is a creation that has more reality) but both are involved in creating something  right?

[Ron Edwards]

Hiya,

Nifty so far. Just to stick with the egghead theory for a minute, I have said a few times that Gamism and Narrativism tend to power one another very nicely, as long as pilot vs. co-pilot are well-distinguished. Both share the overt metagame concept - or rather, it's OK to acknowledge that the players' priorities exist during play.

So feeling a tad competitive or doing some serious me-and-you strategizing can certainly give an edge or motor to fundamentally Narrativist play priorities, and similarly, incorporating thematic or story-creating elements can sometimes be a big part of a success-strategy, especially if imaginative elements of the setting factor into the problem at hand.

Anyway, all this is to say that we're looking at what might be a great functional hybrid, which is all to the better (as opposed to incoherent, which unfortunately is all too common).

It seems to me that the pilot-vs-copilot thing ought to get some attention, though. Imagine some people playing this game - is winning or otherwise prevailing over one's fellow players (or some aspect of the GM's strategy, if any, or whatever) "the point?" If so, set some victory conditions or other forms of reward for doing so. Or rather, is the point to address some interesting Premise about humans, the Divine, and their relationship? If so, then leave the competitive elements as they are and set the reward system(s) to focus on the Premise stuff.

I think once the holiday is over, we'll see some more response to this thread. I like the idea a lot.

Oh hey, and welcome to the Forge.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Gwinn]

Interesting idea.
I think an appropriate reward system may be that the "god" character can grant special attributes to the "mortal" character when specific tasks are accomplished.  The nature of that gift would be determined by the player, thus upholding some of the narrativist aspects you're looking for.

,Matt G.

[Bob McNamee]

Cool Idea....  a bit like taking the Bard concept from Questing beast and making it a full character...
Actually, something like the TQB/POOL wagering concept might fit the Gods aspect well... gambling with the fates of mere mortals.

Bob McNamee

[lumpley]

Yikes!  Read this game I've been working on but not talking about.  Wanna work together, Furcifer?  So we're not stepping on each other's toes?  Or if not, let's coordinate so that it's clear we're after different things.  

Andrew Martin and Matt Gwinn, too, my game has what both of you said.

-Vincent

[Mithras]

Yikes!  Read this game I've been working on but not talking about.  Wanna work together, Furcifer?  -Vincent

Yahhh!!! I knew I should have got my finger out and got down to writing out my DAMN GAME!! Yes, me too, I've been toying with this for at least a year (Andrew, remember helping me out with some nifty ideas regarding conflictingdivine powers??).

My game is (or would be) strictly Greek Olympians, and the players are various allied gods struggling to help a mortal hero (who is controlled jointly or by the GM).

To many good brains ... so little time!

[Andrew Martin]

Vincent's game "Before the Flood" looks very nice! I must play it!

Mithras, yes I remember that help about divine powers. I've put it on my site in the Games section, on the "gods" link. I'm glad to see you're still working on it.

[Furcifer]

Yipes!  A heap of responses!

I'll try to catch as many as I can as clearly as I can, so here goes.

1)I was considering spheres of influence, but I haven't done it yet.  I was planning on some guidelines, though, because people are obviously going to want spheres of influence, and if there are no guidelines, there will be a billion homebrew systems anyways.

2)My magic problem is this: I haven't gotten down to it yet! I stopped work on the magic and just haven't finished it yet.  Create/enchant are handled by the skill creativity; illusion is handled by perception, so they're totally different groups, actually.  Both governed by mind, though.

3)The game is not neccessarily competitive, but I think it would work best with each player as a rival god.  Who, of course, has a chosen, who is a king and high priest of a city-state (akin to Mesopotamia).  Questing would involve the creation of gods opposed to the character gods, and probably an entire pantheon would tumble out of it.  This could be done, but I don't know if I want the rules to contain this yet.

4)The reward system is governed by some over-lord, maybe the head of the pantheon, who gives the god more power.  This power can, in turn, be invested in the chosen.

5)I will send you an email, Vincent.  It looks like we have a similar idea, but the implementation is quite different, I think.  But, I'll send you some details.  I doubt we'll step on each other's toes.  Yours is more story oriented, whereas mine is tactics-oriented.

6)Mithras, you too?!??  Of course, your idea is actually quite different.  Players controlling gods who are trying to help what is essentially an NPC is a fantastic premise.

That's all I got for now, thanks for the response and the welcome!  Reading the stuff here has been great for me; Ron's genius gaming theory has turned my thinking on it's head -- not to mention all the other great ideas floating around!

Back to work with me!

[Andrew Martin]

I've got a fan page up for "Before the Flood". It's got two god characters, Athabaxus, demon of disease and corruption; and Zora, Grain Goddess. It's on this page: http://valley.150m.com/Before%20the%20Flood/Before%20the%20Flood.html.

For Lumpley Games, when I was writing up the two god characters, I changed "Divine Guise" to "Immortal Guise", because it seems to fit better with "Mortal Guise".

I'm intending to run "Before the Flood" in my heroic fantasy game this weekend, to generate the current gods for the game. The Athabaxus god character is one of the all ready existing gods in the game world.

As for the magic problem mentioned by Furcifer, I've been working on Word Magic in my Swift rules system, which is based on god's spheres or domains. Mages "steal" the power of the gods and use it to their own ends. I'm intending to combine Infinite Mana by S. John Ross, with Word Magic and god domains (which are words) with Priestly miracles (based on god domains). Hopefully to produce a integrated magic and miracle system, which has a sensible basis in the game setting.

[lumpley]

Hey, Andrew Martin, cool!  Are you going to just make gods, or are you going to go ahead with mortals too?

(Here's me doing the happy dance 'cuz I've got a fan page.)

-Vincent

[Andrew Martin]

Vincent wrote:
> Are you going to just make gods, or are you going to go ahead with mortals too?

Since then our gaming group has used your system to revive one fantasy game (I'm a player in this) called Yharn, and "build" the gods for another fantasy game (I'm the GM for this) with no name.

For the Yharn game, we've got a variety of "power levels" as it were, like the priest of the War, Disease, Plague god, who has been making deals with all the evil gods, taking things like seeing in the dark in exchange for committing one murder annually (God of Darkness, Murder, Haste, Bad Luck and Assasins); and No Bad Luck in exchange for Not Disturbing Darkness. He can also cause/cure plague at a touch and must spread plague and is constantly affected by plagues. He can also fly, for the price of preserving and protecting all birds, and never eating their flesh.

More mundane PCs just have minor powers, for example, my two characters who are teenage lovers, running away from an arranged marriage and assasins sent by the outraged groom. Both follow Ester, goddess of Love, Youth, Healing and both have the power to heal with a kiss according to their love. Ester grants the power of healing with a kiss according to one's love to anyone who asks.

The gods of Yharn are written up in Groove's outliner with the intention of sharing between players out of game time. The PCs are still in people's hands.

Once I've got some time, I'll write up some more.