Damage Ratings

[Tyrant]

Random or Set?

This is the main point of contention in the rules system I am writing at the moment..

Should a Large Handgun do 4-5 points of damage or just 4?

[Jared A. Sorensen]

If this is the main point of contention, consider yourself lucky.

That said, it really doesn't matter. We don't know anything about your game. Is the difference between 4 and 5 points of damage small or large? What kind of game is it?

Seriously, dude.

[Tyrant]

Sorry, the 4-5 points was only meant as an example.. I idn't want to rag this out into a long post, but it looks like I must...

my point being.. say a character is shot with said firearm, winging him in the arm.

Now a few rounds later he is shot point blank in the chest.. would both attacks cause the same damage? I don't think so myself..

The system I am using for The Hive uses only a single D20 for damage and action resolution

There are 2 Damage types, Brutal and Lethal

A given character has Lethal Damage equal to his Soma Rating an Brutal Damage equal to his soma rating times 10

Lethal Damage is for Firearms and large Melee weapons, Brutal damage is reserved for hand to hand attacks and small melee weapons

What I am trying to do is have a General Weapon list, with  weapons in Small (-1) Medium (0) and Large (+1) categories

All hand to hand attacks are rated at +1

Damage= Weapon Bonus (Firearms)/Soma Rating(Hand to Hand)/Weapon Rating (Melee)
+
The Difference between Difficulty Rating (your combined Attributes) and the Roll made (D20)

does that work?

[Zak Arntson]

Tyrant, please read the sticky at the top of this forum. Then come back. I'll ask some questions:

What is your game about? As far as I can tell, the driving point behind the game is weapon damage.

How does one number vs. two numbers completely change your system? You don't give any details, and when you do, you leave out facts that would be pertinent, like how much damage it takes to hurt someone. Saying a weapon does X damage makes no sense by itself: It's an abstract concept. Same with a weapon doing Damage Rating + Roll - Difficulty. There's no reference point.

But bluntly, I don't care how much damage a gun does. I want the big picture. What you're trying to accomplish with your game. I could care less what kind of damage a gun does, unless your game is all about guns. In which case, it's a different thread than I thought.

[Valamir]

Don't we already know what this game is about?  I mean he's talking about The Hive right?

Didn't we just have a big thread about the Hive.  Its a new link in the Resource Library I know.

That said, I think the real answer to the question is first one of goal.  Not for the game as a whole, but for the role of firearms.  Is there some reason you want a simulative representation of firearms?  If so, than your instincts are right that flat damage is pretty non simulative.  On the other hand if firearms exist mostly as 1) cool props, or 2) a lethal deterent to violence which ideally will never have to be used,  then there's hardly a need to worry about it overly much.  "Bang you're dead", "Bang you're almost dead" or "Bang, you're going to be dead real soon if you don't think of something fast" would be as detailed as you need to get.

[Zak Arntson]

Whatever discussion on the Hive there was, I missed. And I can't find an rpg at the Internet site, just a forum. Tyrant, if you could provide a link to the original thread(s) and/or the game's site, I'd be grateful. I'd also suggest providing link/catch-up with any new thread, because it's difficult to keep up with all the games popping up.

I still stand by asking for clarification, however. Instead of "4 or 4-5?" I'd like to see why YOU are thinking either way, Tyrant. You ask us that it's a point of contention without telling us why.

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I'm with Ralph. You've already told us that we have Brutal and Lethal damage. Isn't that enough? Get hit with the relevant weapon, and it's either Brutal or Lethal. Describe what happens to a character who's been hit Brutally or Lethally, and be done.

Have all modifications/variance in results be worked into the pre-existing resolution system - hence wearing anti-gun armor converts the Lethal damage into Brutal damage, and various circumstances render attacks less likely to take effect.

That ought to cover it for a game that is based on psychology, identity, and similar stuff.

I'm going to be sounding like a broken record for a while, but Roy's technique of simply imagining, and writing out, a dialogue of what play is supposed to sound like, is exactly what's needed in this case.

Best,
Ron

[Tyrant]

Sorry Zak, I don't have a hella lot on the site just yet, still getting it written out...

Here is the Hive topic on the forge

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1757

The Games focus is on characters psychology and the easy slip into madness and death...

And while I agree that a simple fast paced combat system "would do" I had to make it at least "somewhat" realistic

as it is, firearm combat will kill you, no ifs ands or buts about it. That's actually something I wanted, however I wanted to make sure not to make what I see as deadly, totally unplayable

If you have any further questions I'll be happy to answer them

The main question was though "as a whole" which is better set damage amounts or random rolls?

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I guess we're saying, and I endorse this fully, that there is no "whole." Asking that is like asking whether random or pre-set attribute scores are better - it's meaningless out of context.

Now granted, we have the context of the Hive. But we don't have the context of the rest of the system. Is actually being hit highly randomized? is it a binary method, for being hit (yes/no) or graded, like most resolution methods? That's just one of about ten variables to consider.

I suggest considering whether you would prefer to take this to the RPG Theory forum, in which we can compare the actual phenomena that occur in RPGs, and correlate them with all manner of mechanics in a rigorous way. Your post tells me that this is a much bigger issue than simply Hive design.

Best,
Ron

[Tyrant]

Ahhh, too true.. I will take it over there then...

My Appologies all..

I do hope to have some meaningful content up about the Hive soon... been a busy month for me (Daughters Birthday.. her first, Overhauling the Engine on my car, and varied sundry duties that fatherhood implies)

However, Ron, I did improve the website navigation a bit and if you care to read what we have so far I'd suggest joining the defector forum, where all the development is taking place... Stuff we are writing, but not ready to release to the public just yet, So I have it as Mod only (Running on phpBB 2 as well)

Thanks everyone for the feedback

[Zak Arntson]

Before the thread on pure theory begins, I did go back and read your original post on the Hive (thanks for the link!) and wanted to suggest:

You've presented a game where you want the Players very aware of the Hive. I would say that realistic combat should be placed way lower in prioirty than the symbolism. Using that, why does a gun need a damage rating? Even lethal vs. brutal could be set aside. A gun will do damage if it fits the symbolism or belief of the attacker.

Maybe combat should be a contest of will/belief instead?

[Tyrant]

Very nice Zak.. I'll playtest that idea..

*Blink*

Why didn't I think of that?

damnit

[Valamir]

And thats one aspect they did do very well in the Matrix, IMO.  The ability to leap across buildings, run along walls, or pull a bullet out of the air, was really just a matter of believing it.

In the Hive how much damage a gun does to someone could be directly dependent on how much the target believes it should do.  Or as Zak suggests an opposed belief roll...I believe you should be dead, you believe otherwise.  You win the roll by a lot and all kinds of cool Matrix-esque special effects ensue.

I happen to have a higher regard for the Matrix than many people here, but I especially love how gun play works with regards to this belief.  Initially Neo is dodgeing the bullets (with those now cliche super slo mo moves).  This is clearly showing that he hasn't fully grasped things yet.  He has enough belief to do truely outrageous stunts, yet he hasn't gotten over the belief that bullets will kill him (if he had he wouldn't need to dodge them at all).  

Only at the big confrontation in the hallway does he finally over come this.

I think that would be a great concept to put front and center in the Hive.

[Tyrant]

As much as I agree with you (On all points) on how cool the Matrix* was, and how cool a thing it would be to add into the game, I am trying to avoid Matrixisms as a part of the game.. my reason being it's become rather cliche in and of itself..

However the opposed belief rolls seems to work rather well IMO...

*Speaking of which the creators of the Matrix were, at one time, members of the Kult RPG list. My personal belief is that they were rather inspired by the game.. especially with the "reality is a lie" concept (Another thing I am trying to avoid)

[Lance D. Allen]

Hmm.. Something that just popped into my head.

If I remember properly, The Hive is based on the premise that reality is based on the beliefs of the masses, ie the Hive, and that the players "took the red pill" so to speak, and are both aware of this, and slightly immune to it. After all, a member of the Hive might really *believe* he can fly, and still splatter when he jumps off of a building.

So the idea that came to me is a sort of stat which represents the character's level of immunity to the Hive influence, and an opposed stat, which is localized to the area, rather than specific to a person, which resists that. Call this second stat paradigm, or some such. It wouldn't go directly to individuals, because your common man, Joe Hive, doesn't strongly believe a bullet will kill him or anyone else, he just accepts it as a matter of fact, which adds to the overall level of belief.
Examples: A ghetto street where reality seems all too real would have a high Paradigm level. A hospital, where people hope for miracles would have a lower level. The wilderness would have a nearly nonexistent Paradigm level. Places where many, many hallucinogens are taken would likewise have a nearly nonexistent Paradigm level, because belief has been weakened by the hallucinations. Finally, any place used for ritual purposes (be it church, tribal ceremony grounds, etc) would also have a low Paradigm level, because beliefs of greater powers, and things beyond the ken of normal man are much more concentrated in these areas.

Take it or leave it. It's mental vomitus for the most part, but if it's an idea you like (and haven't already come up with) then have fun with it. If you think it's crap, that's cool too.