The Path of Doom - fledgeling S&S game needs input

[Ferry Bazelmans]

I was reading through an http://www.towson.edu/~flynn/swordsor.html" target="_blank">article about heroes in Sword & Sorcery style fantasy and I got the game design jitters. What I have at the moment is a direction I want to go in and an idea for a central mechanic. What I lack is the literary experience to capture the essential elements of S&S. For which I of course turn to you good people.

Basic assumption:

It's not the hero's impressive physique, cunning mind or nimble feet that win the day. It's his Glory in the eyes of the ancient Gods and his path of Fate that make things work for him. Therefore, a character has absolutely no need for numerical stats describing his body, mind or empathic ability. All he needs is his Glory (which will function sort of like experience in that it increases after succesful adventures or may decrease after failed ones) and his Doom (a stat that signifies how far along the path towards his Doom he is).

When a character reaches a certain point, his Doom will be high enough to warrant an impressive death sequence, after which the fallen hero will most likely be embraced by the Gods.

Core Mechanic:

- Roll 2d10 of different colours (1 for the character, 1 for Fate) + Glory
- Compare to targetnumber
- If under TN > failed (if Fate was higher than character dice -> Doom increases by one)
- If over TN > succeed (if Fate was higher than character dice -> Doom decreases by one)

What this does is give the hero some input (his d10), give Fate input (Fate's d10) and gives the Gods a major influence (the added Glory).
Whenever Fate's input in any given action, this slides you towards Doom by one step. Whenever the hero's input is greater, Doom remains unaltered.

There is no way of decreasing your doom. That is not the point of the game.

Glory:
This stat shows how much in favor with the Gods the hero is. For higher-level romps this stat starts at a higher number (since it always adds directly to any roll). For each succesfully completed adventure, add one or more points of Glory => advancement)

Doom:
This stat steadily increases until the hero meets his climactic end. It can start at any level, but I think it would be best to have Glory and Doom correspond somehow (perhaps by having a formula that calculates the best starting Doom value for any given starting Glory value).

Skills:

I want a set number of skills a character can choose. Other than that, the exact phrasing is left up to the player. Want to have a "Speak to dead souls" skill? Write it down. No problem.

If you are not skilled at something but still attempt to do it, subtract 2 from your character's d10 when rolling to see if it worked.

Some things never be attempted by the unskilled (like the ritualistic magic I want in the game).

So, any remarks at this stage; obvious errors or glaring mistakes?

Thanks for commenting,

Fer

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Wow. I'm sure Ron would have much to say about that article. Steel cage-match, anyone?

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

Good history, good references, low on content. I can't see any justification for the "amoral" tag on the protagonists. I see that Flynn has catalogued some things, but why did he do it?

What else is there to say?

Best,
Ron

[Zak Arntson]

I'll chime in and say that "Doom" is not a requirement for Swords & Sorcery. R. Howard's Conan winds up a king (I don't know if there were any stories after that), Kull wins a victory (or at least a pyhrric one) in nearly all of his stories. Karl Edward Wagner's Kane (the two novels I've read) tends to wind up losing in the end, but he's never Doomed to die, only to fail.

I have been working on a Pulp Fantasy add-on to my Shadows game, and I have the idea of Doom. But rather than it being an ultimate fate, it's something that works as a force the Characters may (or may not, it's in their hands, really) overcome.

If you are aiming for the Elric end of things, then by all means use Doom. You would do well to read a ton of the pulp (if you haven't read 'em already), and pick up Ron Edward's Sorcerer & Sword.

As for your System: What does the Target Number mean? You have two stats: Glory and Doom. How does that work with a Target Number? It sounds like they'd work against each other directly, or with each other (the highest Glory could by dying in combat, for example).

Also, why skills? What does a pulp hero need to set them apart from each other. The purpose for any measurable trait is to work as a basis for comparison within the game. Which is why a game like D&D uses Attributes and Skills (to allow characters to fit a role, though I'd say Class + Skill lists is going overboard). You should examine your design goals (i.e., how do you picture the game being played), and consider the places where you want to measure Character Effectiveness. As an aside, there's a great couple of threads somewhere around here that talk about writing a transcript of how you think the game would be played. Poke around, if you haven't read it already (or I'll try to hunt down the links)

Doom & Glory are a good start. Skills may work for you, but I would suggest a slick way to do it, such as Pool/Hero Wars style, "Write down a paragraph about your Hero, and then circle X words that really get to the meat of your Character."

If all the PCs are pulp heroes, whose actions define them far more than their different abilities, I don't see any pressing need for anything but Glory, Doom and maybe a slight measure of effectiveness ("Groll is steeped in the dark arts." -> translates into being able to use the dark arts rather than a Dark Arts 5 vs. some other guy's Dark Arts 2. Whoever acts with the most passion wins out, rather than skill.)

So, those're my thoughts on the matter.

[Ferry Bazelmans]

I'll chime in and say that "Doom" is not a requirement for Swords & Sorcery.

Oh, I know, I just want the feel of the genre, not the exact specifications of it.

...and pick up Ron Edward's Sorcerer & Sword.

Did that just last month. :)

As for your System: What does the Target Number mean? You have two stats: Glory and Doom. How does that work with a Target Number? It sounds like they'd work against each other directly, or with each other (the highest Glory could by dying in combat, for example).

Glory (your standing with the Gods), improves your chances of meeting the TN of any given action. Doom is not connected to the game at all, but is rather an ever-increasing stat that works like the pressure gauge on a kettle. If it reaches its max, it'll explode and in the case of our hero, he'll come to his end in a spectacular display of ... something. :)

Also, why skills? *SNIP*

Is was wondering about that, but I just included them anyway. Keep in mind that this is not something I have been thinking over carefully. I came up with the thing in about 5 minutes. Literally.

If all the PCs are pulp heroes, whose actions define them far more than their different abilities, I don't see any pressing need for anything but Glory, Doom and maybe a slight measure of effectiveness ("Groll is steeped in the dark arts." -> translates into being able to use the dark arts rather than a Dark Arts 5 vs. some other guy's Dark Arts 2. Whoever acts with the most passion wins out, rather than skill.)

This is definitely closer to where I want to go. Thanks. :)

Fer

[Blake Hutchins]

Glory (as you've defined it) and Doom bring up images of Achilles and the Iliad for me.

Sounds like a very interesting take, sir.

Best,

Blake

[Walt Freitag]

- If over TN > succeed (if Fate was higher than character dice -> Doom decreases by one)
...
There is no way of decreasing your doom. That is not the point of the game.

This appears contradictory. A success can only decrease Doom, so performing easy actions (and/or having high Glory) appears to be a way to decrease Doom.

Did you mean that Doom should increase in both cases, whenever Fate rolls higher, succeed or fail? That would mean Doom increases in 45% of all rolls, so the Doom numbers to trigger the actual doom would have to be fairly high.

I like this but I think it can be tighter. Try this:
Roll character die and fate die. Instead of adding, compare each to the TN.

character succeeds, fate fails: success (possibly decrease Doom)
character succeeds, fate succeeds: success, no effect on Doom
character fails, fate fails: failure, no effect on Doom
character fails, fate succeeds: "fateful success", Doom increases by one

Fateful successes should be narrated differently from character successes, so as to reflect the more direct influence of fate in the outcome.

You could add Glory to both dice (equivalently, glory subtracts from TN). Or, you could try this: Add Doom to each Fate roll, add Glory to each Character roll, and resolve as above. This could result in a Doom spiral, which could be interesting and genre-appropriate if it's in the system on purpose.

- Walt

[Zak Arntson]

Glory (your standing with the Gods), improves your chances of meeting the TN of any given action. Doom is not connected to the game at all, but is rather an ever-increasing stat that works like the pressure gauge on a kettle. If it reaches its max, it'll explode and in the case of our hero, he'll come to his end in a spectacular display of ... something. :)

Ah, I get it. So now you've got to the meat of your game. (citing my own posts here) The Unknown Factor is whether your Hero will overcome the obstacle or not, and the Hero's effectiveness is measured in Glory (I'm ignoring skills, since it's only a possibility). Let me know if I have this right, because I've got more questions.

Also, I strongly suggest you allow Doom to directly affect gameplay. Otherwise it's just a countdown with no purpose. How about increasing effectiveness exponentially (not in the strict mathematical sense) with an increase in Doom? Your last actions become unbelievably epic (or passionate) just before you breathe your last.

[Ferry Bazelmans]

- If over TN > succeed (if Fate was higher than character dice -> Doom decreases by one)
...
There is no way of decreasing your doom. That is not the point of the game.

This appears contradictory. A success can only decrease Doom, so performing easy actions (and/or having high Glory) appears to be a way to decrease Doom.

You are absolutely right. The bit about it being impossible to decrease Doom is the one I want in there. Forgot to delete the bit after "If over TN".

Did you mean that Doom should increase in both cases, whenever Fate rolls higher, succeed or fail?

Nope. I meant to say that succeeding at a task merely means the Gods have held Fate at bay for now and Doom does not increase just yet.

I like this but I think it can be tighter. Try this:
Roll character die and fate die. Instead of adding, compare each to the TN.

character succeeds, fate fails: success (possibly decrease Doom)
character succeeds, fate succeeds: success, no effect on Doom
character fails, fate fails: failure, no effect on Doom
character fails, fate succeeds: "fateful success", Doom increases by one

Fateful successes should be narrated differently from character successes, so as to reflect the more direct influence of fate in the outcome.

This sounds great. I'll see what I think fits better for the design goals I have. :)

You could add Glory to both dice (equivalently, glory subtracts from TN). Or, you could try this: Add Doom to each Fate roll, add Glory to each Character roll, and resolve as above. This could result in a Doom spiral, which could be interesting and genre-appropriate if it's in the system on purpose.

Cool. I thank you from the bottom of my Dutch heart. :)

I'll try to write up something more concrete tomorrow (kind of busy now).

Fer