Gaming generation gap & other experience issues?

[RobMuadib]

Hi all

As I mentioned in my earlier posting about forming a new group again and doing some gaming, I met with the people today. I am already acquinted with Ken, we having played a little bit together some years ago. He is older (same age as me, 30) oriented towards a more old-school literal approach to the game, you know character sheets with detailed equipment, pictures of his character, a focus on his particular abilities, as well as "gimmicky" character origins, and character design such as kits and other splat stuff for D&D. Kind of a gamist detailed character design style, though he seemed to enjoy my style of more story-oriented, character driven play. but quite enthusiastic about playing again.


Anyway, the other player, Dustin, is 20, this AFB is his first duty station.. He talked about his experiences with the guys he played with, among a small variety of games. (D&D, Star Wars, Cyberpunk,Werewolf, Vampire)

One of his most interesting habits/beliefs/preferneces is that he prefers shorter one-shot type stuff as the people he played with tended to get bored and be disruptive or otherwise sand-bag when trying anything longer.

One interesting thing that struck me was his difference in knowledge/familiarity. Both me and Ken kind of grew up with D&D, reading Dragon, and are familiar with most of the modules and other TSR nostalgia and bits, while Dustin wasn't so. I mean, some of the modules and old rulebooks that Ken had are older than him!.

Another interesting bit was that he mentioned lots of like Nintendo games having influence his interest in RPG's, he mentioned Final Fantasy as an influence for his interest, and the first SF/F type books he read were the Dragon Lance ones even. Another interesting comment he made in regards to playing vampire was that he couldn't get into Vampires in the modern age, and having preferred Vampire: The Dark Ages instead, as he was used to thinking of vampires in old castles and stuff from having played Castlevania on Nintendo.

So I guess my question is has anyone else (or at least us older game geeks of late 20s-early 30's +) run into problems with "Generation Gap" type deals like this in gaming with people. The different background and experience of SF/Fantasy and other games.

Oh, there was one more player that might be interested, he is true gaming newbie. He mentioned having played Rifts once but hating it as he was stuck with a 1st level character while everyone else was 10th level, and he didn't get the game very well.

So anyone have any good advice or guidelines, or a link to such, on things to do/consider when introducing a new gamer into the fold . In case you haven't mentioned it, I have been playing RPG's for a LONG time, like since 85 or so, and mostly played with a rather dedicated group of game geeks who played a wide variety of games, both RPG, as well as Tactical Combat sims such as Battle-tech, SFB, board games like Axis & Allies, and old school wargames like Squad Leader and such as well.


Hope this isn't considered off-topic, but hey it's been a while since I played FTF.

thanks

Rob

[Henry Fitch]

Well, I don't have any advice, but I'd like to add another layer to the generation-gap concept. I'm a teenager, as you may know, and I haven't really seriously gamed ever. I've been mired in Stage 1 (reading manuals, making characters), however, for a rather very long time. I had my first little D&D/D6 phase, followed by the somewhat longer White Wolf phase, but now I'm firmly in the Indie/mostly-Narrativist camp, and that's the only one that I've been really incredibly enthused about. So when I actually get to play this summer, and the rest of the group is completely game-clueless, I think it's going to be very interesting to see how my experience differs from those of people who've moved through actual play of D&D and such instead of just sucking out some of the ideas and moving on. Yeah. I'm done, sorry.

[Paganini]

I haven't really seriously gamed ever.

<SHAMELESS PLUG>

Get thee to Yahoo Groups and join the indie-netgaming group! Actual play! Actual play!

http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/indie-netgaming

</SHAMELESS PLUG>

[Henry Fitch]

Uh, let me amend my statement. I haven't really seriously gamed ever, not including a few rather bad attempts over the internet. In my experience, it doesn't really seem to work... but maybe I'll give it a shot, who know.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Rob,

I think I've always had a problem with some fellow players who'd learned about fantasy from gaming, and didn't know much about fantasy literature or myth. However, that phenomenon has been around since the late 70s, even when role-playing was barely a few years old. I don't think the generation gap itself has a 1:1 correlation with it.

I've found that if the interest in role-playing springs from a genuine interest in the topic at hand and a willingness to address that topic through role-playing, then age doesn't make much difference. When I was in my late twenties, my Champions group included a high schooler who was one of the best and most reliable role-players I've ever known. Six years later, my group included a twenty-year-old woman who'd never gamed before, and she was outstanding. And now, as I squint a little at forty approaching in the mirror, I'm enjoying playing with many members of the college role-playing club.

Best,
Ron

[wyrdlyng]

So I guess my question is has anyone else (or at least us older game geeks of late 20s-early 30's +) run into problems with "Generation Gap" type deals like this in gaming with people. The different background and experience of SF/Fantasy and other games.

I ran into this when my younger brother (8 years younger) expressed an interest in roleplaying. He'd played in a Vampire game at a Con I dragged him to and he liked it. He wanted to join our D&D game (many years ago...). The first thing we had to do was talk about what he considered Fantasy. As he had never read a novel in his life his ideas were based around video games and comics. This talk helped prevent misunderstandings regarding what to expect and how things worked.

Learning what everyone has in mind and establishing a common group of terms and concepts will help different people integrate together well. It also allows new ideas to present themselves and possibly integrate with or alter existing concepts. The main thing is to talk with everyone.

[Valamir]

The first thing we had to do was talk about what he considered Fantasy. As he had never read a novel in his life

I hope the next thing you did was slap him silly shove a book in his hands and lock him in a closet until he'd read it.  

Not read a novel in his life...I can't even imagine.

[AndyGuest]

The first thing we had to do was talk about what he considered Fantasy. As he had never read a novel in his life

I hope the next thing you did was slap him silly shove a book in his hands and lock him in a closet until he'd read it.  

Not read a novel in his life...I can't even imagine.

Unfortunately it isn't that uncommon occurence.

Reading is a thing of the past for many folk - see http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_2009000/2009746.stm

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

It doesn't seem to me that the "doesn't read" issue is necessarily a generation-gap one.

(Yes, we could get into a long debate about whether "kids these days" don't respect reading as much as "we did," but I don't think that will be useful. Anti-intellectualism has been present throughout human history, and especially as a significant factor in the American middle class.)

I'm interested in whether people have noted generation-gap issues in role-playing that are not based on habits of reading and commitment to specific sorts of source material.

The one thing I can think of is the difference between romantic/social needs during gaming itself. In the campus group especially, it's clear that flirting and moment-to-moment status are a big deal during play, whereas in the previously-Hero Wars group (we're all late-30s) it's totally not, and instead we really like to address romance as a topic of thematic play.

This is not to shut down discussion about the source-material thing, though. If people want to keep that topic going, that's fine. I'm interested in whether these other sorts of contrasts/issues have shown up in others' games, though.

Best,
Ron

[rabidchyld]

In my group, it's not as much of an "age gap" issue so much as a "gaming gap" issue.  The core group has been gaming for at least 10 years.  We all knew how to get into "the spirit of play", you know..what's expected, what we can and can't do in a particular game setting, an appropriate level of silliness, and how to use our resources and weapons.  Plus we were all comfortable with each other's style of play.  

Our newest players have kindof gone through some stages of evolution in their gaming.  Neither age, nor how many/what kinds of books they have read had any bearing, because the players were total opposites, and they reacted the same way.  At first neither one of the wanted to do anything but beat shit up.  They weren't interested in other aspects of the game.  I think they were mostly not comfortable yet with the whole idea of getting into character and they kinda felt like they weren't part of the "group" yet.  Trey made the problem worse with one of the players because he basically gave her a +12 Hackmaster to get her more interested in playing.  That was a big mistake, because now she is REALLY into beating shit up.  She's played in one of my games and didn't enjoy it as much because I refused to give her massive killing ability.  She's not really part of the group anymore.

The other player finally got comfortable with us and then degenerated into debauchery whenever he gamed with us.  He felt more comfortable with his character and decided to take him over the top and try to get some lesbian 3 way action (or some other such nonsense) with the NPC's, or even the other PC's..every chance he got.  We remembered doing that ourselves, and how quickly we got bored with it, so we didn't kill him.  He has recently mellowed out from that and has developed a more even style of play and gotten into the groove of the rest of the group.  

Right now we are beginning to have an age gap issue that we never expected in our other gaming group.  This other group consists of Trey's Aunt and Uncle, and a couple of their friends.  They are all approaching 40 as we approach 30.  Suddenly, they have decided now that they are getting older they must be "very serious gamers".    

"No more funny business, kids, just the facts and keep going.  Do the adventure right.  I don't want any cutting up in my game.  This is serious business."  

Gaming with them is getting to be no fun anymore.  It's getting to the point where they don't invite us anymore and we're fine with that.  It's not like we act like a bunch of retarded 2 year olds with fetal alcohol syndrome or anything.  

Anyway, has anyone else had their newer players react the way mine did? or is this just in my group?

Melodie

[edited to protect the names of the guilty]

[DeadGirl]

In my group, it's not as much of an "age gap" issue so much as a "gaming gap" issue.  The core group has been gaming for at least 10 years.  We all knew how to get into "the spirit of play", you know..what's expected, what we can and can't do in a particular game setting, an appropriate level of silliness, and how to use our resources and weapons.  Plus we were all comfortable with each other's style of play.

I have been noticing some definite "gap" in the group that I regularly game with, though I'm not certain if it's generational or experiential.

Part of the group (4 players) has been gaming together off and on for about 7 years, and range in age from 28-38. These are very experienced players who are used to one another's styles. The characters they play have depth and work well together (sometimes too well; they can be a real handful for a GM!).

The other part of the group (3 players) are either completely new to role-playing, or are just returning to role-playing after a long hiatus. Two previously played 2nd edition D&D. The brand new player is in her early 20s, the other 2 are in their late 20s.

Bottom line, the newest player picked up RPing quickly and is playing similarly to the more experienced members. The remaining 2 are disruptive when together (we have even had to separate them so they quit picking at each other) to the extent that we are considering not including one of them in future sessions.

Our newest players have kindof gone through some stages of evolution in their gaming. [snip] At first neither one of the wanted to do anything but beat shit up.  They weren't interested in other aspects of the game.

Anyway, has anyone else had their newer players react the way mine did? or is this just in my group?

Only two of the newer players had the reaction you describe at the beginning, and one of them is starting to move out of it. The youngest/newest player chose to create a wizard as her first character, and has done a bang-up job.

You may find that you have to exclude a player from further sessions if he/she has a different focus than the rest of the players, and is causing disruption in the group.

Just my $0.02. It's difficult for a GM and can lessen everyone's enjoyment when player styles are at odds.

~Kris

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Kris,

Agreed on all counts. (1) "Newness" or "youngness" doesn't, itself, seem to be the driving factor for a player's ability/inability to get engaged and role-play well. (2) Plain old incompatibility (usually in social-contract terms) can sometimes be so extreme that the best bet is simply not to include that person.

Oh yes - Welcome to the Forge!

Best,
Ron

[rabidchyld]

You are absolutely right, Kris.  

After some thought, the problems I mentioned earlier, I think, came from specific sources.  One of the players who was attack happy got the wrong impression of gaming because of the way Trey ran that particular game.  It was hack and slash fun, so she thought that all games were that way.  The other player took some time getting used to our style of play, because he heard the other players relating their "battle stories"...which made them sound much more over the top than they actually were.  He got the wrong impression, too.  He has done very well adjusting to our style of play, though.  

I've become very picky in who I let play in my games.  The disruptive people, or the people who have bad attitudes don't play in my games anymore.  When I first started GMing, I let anybody play in the spirit of keeping the "group" happy.  The group not being the player group so much as our social group.  

The biggest problems I had were social, aside from the aforementioned problems, and didn't really have anything to do with the game at all.  After a couple of times of getting really burned, I picked specific people to play in my game and to hell with everybody else.

Now I have 4 really great players, and 2 very new players that sometimes join in who are really great, too.  It has caused quite a few problems socially (oh the drama..it's like a soap opera sometimes), but I don't really care that much because we are having our best games ever.  

Melodie