Combat Examples of an Engine without Hit Points

[Finarvyn]

I'd also like to take a look at your entire system. It sounds quite interesting.

By the way, if you're looking for a different approach to a combat system without hit points, the Amber Diceless RPG does this by comparing Warfare ratings for combat, then Endurance ratings for staying-power, and allowing the story-telling to help dictate when one character is defeated. Your system reminds me a little of that one, only yours seems to have more attributes/skills to work through.

[Ar Kayon]

That system was the inspiration for Nevercast's core mechanics.  However, I thought I could get the most bang out of my system if I eclectically combined fortune and diceless principles.  I refer to it as semi-diceless, and I am extremely satisifed with the results: diceless gives me reliability and is strategy-friendly; fortune gives me complexity.

[Lance D. Allen]

I was floored to hear you toss off descriptions of what is called, in some circles, A "mortschlag" (sp?) and half-swording. Are you familiar with the ARMA?

A game worth checking out to see how someone else very successfully did the same thing is The Riddle of Steel, written by an active member of the ARMA. Unfortunately, it is out of official print, but you should be able to find information on it, at least. If you're interested, and can't find it, PM me and I'll dig for you.

Looking at your description of combat, it seems very opaque, with various maneuvers named and tactical decisions that may not be readily identifiable.. But I think that familiarity with the system would clear up a lot of that. I think the mechanical description does a good job of also being a narrative description, which is definitely a good thing in my book, though.

[Ar Kayon]

Thank you for the positiive feedback.

I only have a passing familiarity with Riddle of Steel.  The reason why I made a medieval combat example was to demonstrate the system's fluidity; Nevercast is a science-fiction RPG.  Only Masters of the Martial Arts use modernized blades based off of the Chinese Jian.  (Black tungsten carbide for armor penetration and concealment and perhaps a carbon nanotube cross section to prevent breakage and to attract and store energy from the fuzz's pesky medium range electric weapons?  Just a thought; I have no idea if that could actually work.  Probably not.)

[Ar Kayon]

Combat Example

Two masters agree to a duel, using their weapons of choice: Kanu Gon chooses the traditional Outworlder master's weapon, a Sword of Beauty, and the Des Xiac Pratnavahatdu, a progressivist master, chooses a .45 handgun with a 7 round magazine (not expecting the duel to last long).

Pratnavahatdu fakes a shot at Kanu Gon, who only slightly hesitates (Kanu Gon reflex passed). Pratnavahatdu then fires three times at Kanu Gon, who dives and somersaults obliquely towards him (dash pass). Pratnavahatdu fires again twice using an extra combat action to aim as Kanu Gon recovers, but Kanu Gon's instant reflex ability (uses up all concentration) improves his passive defense significantly as he almost precognitively shifts his body to avoid the shots.

Next round

Pratnavahatdu gets nervous as Kanu Gon gets close and quickly fires two rounds using concentration to improve the attack. Kanu Gon reacts with a response quick attack (long range strike ability allows him to lunge for extra reach with his blade), using an extra combat action to focus his blow. Both fighters compare the speed of their attack, and Kanu Gon strikes first as he gets lucky with his randomizer roll. Pratnavahatdu's instant reflex ability almost gets him out of the way but the cut of Kanu Gon's sword manages to split his cheek open (gradient of success +2). (they both now have 1 action remaining as Pratnavahatdu loses an action to recover from the blow)
On Kanu Gon's turn, he follows up with a killing stroke to the neck as Pratnavahatdu desperately tries to shoot him first in a response attack. The speed contest is even as they both pause and hold their weapons to each other. Realizing the stalemate, Kanu Gon and Pratnavahatdu back off of each other and bow, ending the duel.

[FetusCommander]

This is a really interesting system, I'd definitely be interested in having the GM challenge me with this.  To me, the narration seems double good, since it allows people more stake in the encounters, and also makes the fighting cinematic.  That really seems like it would help with the "other dude's turn glaze" that happens in a lot of RPGs.  Additionally, it seems like the way someone describes their actions has strategic meaning for everyone at the table: so listening out to pick up what maneuvers someone is using is very beneficial.   

Your examples all make sense to me.

In your game, is there such a thing as "followers" (similar to the Leadership feat in D&D, where you have "pets" who follow you around)?  If so, do they use your turn for actions/use some of your action points? 

Like, how would something like a fight between a necromancer and his 2 skeletons vs. a single knight play out?

[Ar Kayon]

Some professions will give you access to a team or subordinates, or will have that option available upon being promoted.  In most situations, your subordinates will be completely controlled by the GM.  However, players with less experienced characters may also take this role.

A skill type called "small-unit combat tactics" will grant characters the capacity to directly coordinate subordinates in combat.  When the commander issues a command during his turn, the subordinates may act upon it during the same turn order by using a response action (combatants separate their actions amongst turn actions and response actions).  Therefore, you will be able to direct simultaneous action during combat.

So, let's say the necromancer sees the knight charging at him.  On his first action, he commands the skeletons to hold, on his second action, he casts a spell to shield himself, and he holds off on the third to prepare for the knight.  The knight charges in, and the necromancer uses his last action in response to evade him.  In the next round, the necromancer uses his first action to call his skeletons to fall upon the knight and attack him from behind.  The knight uses up all his actions in response to turn and defend himself from the skeletons as the necromancer comes up from behind, ramming his dagger in the knight's unprotected armpit.

[mauriciocabaleiro]

Let's compare:
The opponent cuts your abdomen deeply with his sword (he passed his attack by 3), and you start bleeding out (suffer the "profuse bleeding" effect).

VS

The opponent hits you for (rolls dice, and adds modifiers) x amount of damage.  Hold on a second, I need to look up the effects for that.

I´m doing the very same thing with a mechanic I´m working on. It has 12 conditions:

4 are tactical
Cornered
First Blood
Disarm
Blade to the Throat

4 are non-lethal
Bruised
Knocked out of breat
Lying on the floor
Uncounscious

4 are lethal
Bleeding
Incapacitated
Mangled
Dead

There are no hit points, but a target number needed to impose a certain condition.

I could talk about how I resolve conflicts and how the system handles multiple actions but sice this is my current project I really want to have a more concise version before exposing it to critics... It still needs a good deal of thinking

[Ar Kayon]

Start a new thread about it.  I will be more than happy to talk about it there.

[Ar Kayon]

An example of hand-to-hand combat.

Kanu Gon
6 strength
9 speed
6 endurance
7 agility
7 dexterity
8 reflex
4 awareness
6 focus
7 logic
5 charisma
6 insight

7 power
2 concentration
6 stamina

Meh Kada
10 strength
6 speed
8 endurance
5 agility
6 dexterity
6 reflex
6 awareness
8 focus
8 logic
4 charisma
8 insight

8 power
3 concentration
8 stamina


Round 1

1. Kanu Gon poises himself and waits for Meh Kada.

2. Meh Kada moves a 1 combat step forward, and then another (Kanu Gon responds by backing up 1).  Meh Kada feints, but Kanu Gon reacts minutely (feint failed).


Round 2

1. Kanu Gon feints (pass), and Meh Kada breaks his rhythm as he hesitates and loses an action.
* Kanu Gon  follows up by moving 1 range forward (move-to-attack) for a long range quick attack strike, using 1 concentration (sp+2+1d4-1-1=11).  Meh Kada evades using 1 concentration (ag+2+3=10=1 effect - Effect Reduction=0 effect).  The bursting side kick hits, but isn't forceful, and Kanu Gon ends his turn.

2. Meh Kada lunges with a jab to the body and hops a combat step forward for a jab to the head (long range quick attack first blow, moving-to-attack quick attack on the second blow; a combination), with concentration added to both blows.  Kanu Gon evades the first blow by shifting back a few inches and then obliquely to the side as the jab passes by his head.  He counterattacks with a heavy uppercut to the ribs (standard strike; stamina used for more power; 2 effect=hurt; -1 passive defense) combined with a huge overhand punch to the head (2 effect=hurt x2="damaged" effect; -1 all attribute checks and effect reduction; -2 passive defense) and a right hook to the head (3 effect= "damaged" x2 = "incapacitate" effect) (overhand and right hook were power attacks; stamina used for more power).  Kanu Gon's speed easily overwhelms Meh Kada's passive defense score, and Meh Kada crumbles from the first two blows and gets knocked out from the final blow**.


Tactical Breakdown

*Notice how Kanu Gon frustrates Meh Kada when he tries to move into range and forces him to fight at a distance where he is at a disadvantage.  Using a response attack every time an opponent moves-to-attack is a speed strategy.

*Meh Kada's strength is so great that Kanu Gon has to both be extremely accurate and muscle his blows in order to even stun him.  When Kanu Gon strikes Meh Kada with his bursting side kick, it doesn't affect him at all.  The strength strategy is to fight inside where you can absorb anything a weaker fighter has to throw at you, land blows with a greater chance of success, and make up for a lack of striking "crispiness" with sheer power.  Subduing the weaker fighter with grappling is also effective.

*Meh Kada has an environmental disadvantage.  Since they are fighting in an open space, he has no way of cutting off Kanu Gon's movement and cornering him.

**The more skilled you are, the more time you are allowed by the GM when determining what moves you want to use.  An astute player will be able to figure out when his opponent runs out of actions and take advantage of it.  This is represented in game terms by the fighter having an excellent sense of both timing and his opponent's intent.

*Effects of the same type stack if you inflict them in time.  For example, the "hurt" effect lasts 1 round, so you have to hurt your opponent again within the same round in order to cause the "damaged" effect.  Thus, with repeated blows in a combination, you may take advantage of the death spiral, which was what Kanu Gon did in order to end the fight in ten seconds.

*Although combinations are effective ways to ensure that you damage your opponent with minimal combat action use, they can be completely nullified if you move out of range on the first blow (unless if the second blow is a move-to-attack, which was what Meh Kada did), preventing the need to deal with every strike.  Also, your passive defense is lowered whenever you throw combinations, making you vulnerable to response attacks.  The greater your character's speed, the more total attacks you can put in your combination (2 for a slow fighter, 3 for a fast fighter, and 4 for an extremely fast fighter).

*Using strength, speed or power actions for a novice taxes stamina.  The more skilled you are, the less action types you will be required to spend stamina on, as a result of having greater economy of movement.

*Stamina and concentration effort pools may be recovered by spending turn actions to catch your breath and compose yourself.  If you run out of concentration, you may only improve attacks by spending combat actions.  If you run out of stamina, it only means you're fatigued, and you may continue to use stamina at the risk of becoming more fatigued and suffering greater penalties.

*A "slip" is an evasion technique where you move a few inches at most in order to be in position to counterattack, as opposed to a "dodge" which completely repositions your body.  Although a dodge offers a greater counterattack bonus, a slip is easier to perform and doesn't require any combat actions to use.

[Ar Kayon]

Example 2

Indra
5 strength
6 speed
5 endurance
7 agility
8 dexterity
7 reflex
8 awareness
5 focus
6 logic
7 charisma
8 insight

5 power
3 concentration
5 stamina

Ar Jin Jee Ee
4 strength
6 speed
4 endurance
8 agility
8 dexterity
5 reflex
9 awareness
7 focus
5 logic
6 charisma
8 insight

5 power
4 concentration
4 stamina


Round 1

1. Indra wastes no time and dashes forward, covering her attack by bridging Ar Jin's guard and follows up with a strike.  Ar Jin wards off the bridge by circling her hand and then jams Indra's arm (reverse: ward-to-jam: 50% chance; 1d4=1; failed).  The timing is poor, but the bridge is broken and Ar Jin quickly responds to the strike with a parry (pass).   
*Indra continues her assault with a quick two-hit chain punch to Ar Jin's face.  Ar Jin responds by exchanging blows in the same manner.  The strikes are simultaneous because their speed attributes are equivalent, but both Indra and Ar Jin's guard protects them against the blows (passive defense 7 Indra, 8 Ar Jin).  Indra ends her turn.

2. Ar Jin attempts to bridge, using concentration, and Indra responds by bridging as well, also using concentration (Ar Jin 1d4=4; Indra 1d4=1).  Ar Jin latches on to Indra's wrist, and pulls in her into an elbow strike.  Indra's Instant Reflex ability takes over, adding all of her remaining concentration to add 2 points to her passive defense.  Indra involuntarily reacts by shielding herself from the blow with her elbow.


Round 2

1. Indra quickly takes a deep breath (+1 concentration).  She wards off the grip (defender always passes on even) and reverses it into a grip of her own (50% chance 1d4=3; pass).  She uses her last action for a sharp, quick backhand to the face (stamina added for power) and Ar Jin attempts to parry using concentration.  Indra's attack hits Ar Jin in the nose and stuns her.  Blood drips out.

2. Ar Jin responds in anger by unleashing a kick combination to Indra's knee (quick attack) and face (standard strike), with concentration added to the quick attack and for the knee targeting and stamina added to both blows (1d4=3; 9 quick attack, 4 standard; roll for knee strike 1d4=2; fail; standard leg strike).  The blow misses the knee and strikes the shin, which is painful, albeit superficial (hurt effect to leg).  The second kick hits air as Ar Jin's accuracy is off.  Ar Jin follows up with two roundhouse kicks to the ribs but land "uncrispy" on Indra's arm and side (Indra passive defense: pass).


Tactical Breakdown
*Because their dexterity is much higher than their other fighting attributes, Indra and Ar Jin naturally use techniques based on dexterity to secure their victory.  Unfortunately, their dexterity attributes are even, and the two fighters end up in a stalemate, even though Ar Jin has some slight advantages.  As a result, the key to winning for them relies on carefully conserving combat actions and concentration.  Thus, the combat pace will start slowing down as they take time to compose their thoughts and jockey for position, and then the pace will pick up again with numerous exchanges of blows.

*I chose two dexterity fighters for this exchange to demonstrate what a kung fu fight would look like using this system.  I also wanted to demonstrate contrast with the last combat example, which was meant to display something like Jeet Kune Do vs. Kickboxing or Muay Thai.