Gaming Comes Out-of-the-Box [was "Beginner-Friendly Gam

[Walt Freitag]

...directly market a game to them - via direct mail, electonrically, telemarketing.

Instead of the telemarketing part, could we do something a bit less obnoxious? Like, say, wrapping ads for role playing games around rocks and throwing them through people's windows at midnight?

- Walt

[quozl]

Wow!  I come home from work and there are 50 posts.

Quozl and Clinton, I have a question.  Are you gusy saying that there is some sort of indicator that you believe can be used to find people who can be successfully introduced to roleplaying?

Earlier in the thread, I said (in response to Fang asking me how to get new gamers): "Seek out the introverted, the sullen, the quiet creatives. Seek out the people you pass everyday that look at the ground. Seek out these people scrambling around for an outlet and give them one."

I guess I should answer this question too.  I agree with what Clinton said and I would also add anyone who either doesn't fit in with society or doesn't care for what society cares for.  I think many intelligent people fall into the latter category because society is too mundane for them.  Look around.  At least at The Forge, I would suspect there are a higher percentage of intelligent people than you would normally find.  

Of course, if you combine the two categories, you get criminals.  While you probably don't want to market games to them, it might be worth reading up on the psychology of criminals to see if games could be marketed to people like them. (Hopefully before they become criminals!)

I'm really not inferring all roleplayers could be criminal masterminds but it sure sounds that way, doesn't it?

[wyrdlyng]

Busy, busy, busy.

This brings me to a very "out-of-the-box" idea: that role-players aren't created by any sort of marketing - instead, they're born or socialized into the role.

I do agree that even if you create the ultimate "Gateway" not everyone will turn into a gamer. Roleplaying is a specific pastime much like collecting stamps or scrapbooking. They don't appeal to everyone and probably never will.

However, I think trying to convert the world isn't what we're talking about here. I think we're looking for a way to make roleplaying more commonly recognized as a valid pastime thus reaching those who would enjoy the hobby but that are not aware of its existence. And at the same time make roleplaying a more popularly accepted hobby rather than something which is played by social outcasts in basements.

Are you gusy saying that there is some sort of indicator that you believe can be used to find people who can be successfully introduced to roleplaying?

My major is Computer Animation, not Psychology so I'm not completely sure that you can just brand certain personality types as being innately attracted to roleplaying. There may be some common traits between gamers but there are just as many differences in personalities as well.

Which leads to...

Would you be interested in making a personality type survey for the people here at The Forge? Would Clinton and Ron be open to having a survey hosted here? We could get actual information on what type of people gamers are (at least the ones here at The Forge) and perhaps see what behaviors in others can be marketed to.

I don't know how effective this would be. Trying to find the answers you're looking for would almost be better suited by asking "Why do you roleplay?" We're all very distinct individuals. I like giant robots, japanese romance comics, heavy metal with strong percussions and bass lines, David Lynch's metaphoric films, the colors gray and blue, the number 17, the soft whir of computer cooling fans, and brunettes. How does any of that reveal why I game?

I'm not saying that you won't find common points between some but I don't think it will be enough to isolate a specific personality point to hold up as the "gaming personality gene".

Though we might find out that we're all a lot stranger than we might have thought. :)

[quozl]

My major is Computer Animation, not Psychology....

Which leads to...

Trying to find the answers you're looking for would almost be better suited by asking "Why do you roleplay?" We're all very distinct individuals. I like giant robots, japanese romance comics, heavy metal with strong percussions and bass lines, David Lynch's metaphoric films, the colors gray and blue, the number 17, the soft whir of computer cooling fans, and brunettes. How does any of that reveal why I game?

I think you'd be surprised at what a psychologist and/or marketer could make of that.  Don't knock it until you try it....

[Jeremy Cole]

I do agree that even if you create the ultimate "Gateway" not everyone will turn into a gamer. Roleplaying is a specific pastime much like collecting stamps or scrapbooking. They don't appeal to everyone and probably never will.

However, I think trying to convert the world isn't what we're talking about here. I think we're looking for a way to make roleplaying more commonly recognized as a valid pastime thus reaching those who would enjoy the hobby but that are not aware of its existence.

Has an assumption been made that the only purpose of a more mainstream game is to bring gamers into 'real RPG', that mainstream is only good for gateway.  If you design a game that a non-hardcore person can play, enjoy, and hopefully play a lot more, even if he never goes further into the hobby, isn't that just fine?  Many people don't want to RP like we do, let them.

More coming...

[Jeremy Cole]

Roleplayers aren't created by marketing, sure.  But people aren't 'RPG - Yes' or 'RPG - No' binary units either.  The assumption that people don't play at present, therefore there is no part of RP that they would like is a big leap.

Maybe the market analysis getting suggested here could focus on non-RPers, and what features of RP games they might like.  There would be real feedback to designers about making games not to lure consumers, but just because they might like it.

Jeremy

[deadpanbob]

Roleplayers aren't created by marketing, sure.  But people aren't 'RPG - Yes' or 'RPG - No' binary units either.  The assumption that people don't play at present, therefore there is no part of RP that they would like is a big leap.

Maybe the market analysis getting suggested here could focus on non-RPers, and what features of RP games they might like.  There would be real feedback to designers about making games not to lure consumers, but just because they might like it.

Jeremy,

This is exactly the type of analysis we marketers do.  We take a look at the differences in behavior, or attitude, or preference, or some combination of the three, both for people who currently do what we're researching (in this case, play RPGs) and people who don't.

For a truly effective analysis, you need those people who don't currently do the behavior of interest as a comparison point - otherwise you end up with auto-correlated self-reinforcing answers that don't let you create effective acquisition strategies.

BTW - I don't advocate telemarketing - sure I'm a telemarketing enabler - and I realize that as a result I'm going to to Dante's 9th level of Hell - but hey, it's a living.  If I were marketing my own game, I'd avoid telemarketing like the plauge...

We could do a survey and analysis here at the Forge, or with the help of the folks over at RPG.net, or maybe both.  I would actually like to do something like this - but my area of expertise is on the analysis and strategy end of things, and a good researcher with survey design experience is needed to really make for a rigorous and useful survey design.

One last thought to keep in mind - this kind of research won't identify causlity (i.e. put this into your game and it will sell), it is a way to minimize the risks involved in marketing a product or service.  It's also not a good way to develop 'out-of-the-box' concepts - which are much harder to test precisely because they don't match people's expecations.

Cheers,

Jason.

[Valamir]

[ironic]No, you're right.  It'll never work; in fact, let's resolve to never do anything experimental or even try to reach new audiences.  What's the point?

There, is that sullen enough to make me a candidate to play role-playing games.[/ironic]

What are we arguing here?  It's not worth even trying?  By anyone?

I don't buy any wet blanket argument based on 'it won't work.'  No way to tell = it's worth a shot.  What exactly will we lose just trying?  Nobody's putting a gun to your head and saying you have to do it (or even like it).

Fang Langford

Damn Fang.

Reading a bit much into the words skeptical and dubious aren't we?  How exactly does one get from there to "not worth trying by anyone"...

[Le Joueur]

[ironic] No, you're right.  It'll never work; in fact, let's resolve to never do anything experimental or even try to reach new audiences.  What's the point?

There, is that sullen enough to make me a candidate to play role-playing games. [/ironic]

What are we arguing here?  It's not worth even trying?  By anyone?

I don't buy any wet blanket argument based on 'it won't work.'  No way to tell = it's worth a shot.  What exactly will we lose just trying?  Nobody's putting a gun to your head and saying you have to do it (or even like it).

Reading a bit much into the words skeptical and dubious aren't we?  How exactly does one get from there to "not worth trying by anyone"...

Not at all.  Perhaps 'irony' was the wrong word for it, but I wasn't sure 'hyperbole' (in the poetic and humorous sense) would've been understood.  If you cut out the 'tagged section,' the question remains.  "What are you arguing here?"

You're skeptical, you're dubious, you want hard evidence; this sounds like you don't think it'll work.  How did you want it to sound?  My point was if there is no evidence, then no one can say it won't work either.

Besides, there is one potential gateway, albeit probably not a good example; the Dragonlance Novels were arguably marketed to attract pulp fantasy readers to role-playing games.  I just don't think the 'bridge product' was there.

I mean, we can discuss this all day.  The Pokémon cartoon is targeted at Saturday morning/weekday afternoon cartoon watchers.  It has tons of cross marketing.  On the very same shelves as toys for this, is the gameboy cartridges and the card packs.  The "mommy, I wanna, I wanna..." crowd will wind up with a smattering of each.  Does this generate sales from outside of the electronic gaming market for Nintendo?  You bet it does.  Is it thinking outside the box?  Not any more.  In Japan especially, pretty much all big ticket console video games have comic book tie-ins have cartoons have figurine collectibles and the vice is often versa.

All of which 'proves' nothing.  Nada.  Bobkes.

But, in just the same fashion, nothing we have access to proves that it won't work.  I argue, instead of taking the 'wet blanket' route, and deciding that something that has never been done probably won't work, it's actually something we should try.  Or at least try thinking about.

If you didn't mean to sound this way, I'll happily retract my response as far as you're concerned.  But the point stands.

Dang Langford

p. s. Boy that sounds defensive.  I wonder what side of the bed I got up on?

[Jeremy Cole]

We could do a survey and analysis here at the Forge, or with the help of the folks over at RPG.net, or maybe both.  I would actually like to do something like this - but my area of expertise is on the analysis and strategy end of things, and a good researcher with survey design experience is needed to really make for a rigorous and useful survey design.

There are obviously things people don't like about RP at present, otherwise the hobby would be bigger.  But I believe there are elements in the hobby that are close to universal, elements shared with film and literature.  If we want to hit a larger market, I think we should look at products aimed at keeping these universal elements, but stripping the historical elements that only the hardcore enjoy.

So I was sort of thinking of research on non-RPers, and what elements of the hobby turn them away, rather than having produced a product just yet.  I think player's wives and girlfriends could be a useful source, as they have knowledge of RP and some don't like the hobby, or don't like it enough that they wouldn't play if hubby didn't rope them in.

More to come...

[Jeremy Cole]

Besides, there is one potential gateway, albeit probably not a good example; the Dragonlance Novels were arguably marketed to attract pulp fantasy readers to role-playing games. I just don't think the 'bridge product' was there.

This is my point exactly, that all thought on the topic seems focussed on getting people to move to RP.  The above was a crude cross-marketing exercise, read book, discover game, like game and all supplements.  But most people who read the Dragonlance novels still didn't move to RP, because the game in its current form is designed to a small market.  

Maybe as an alternative, a system where one guy, on his own, can create a pulp fantasy story.  I guess this would not be a 'GMless' game, but a 'Playerless' one.  Here, people who don't want to have a four hour commitment every week, and don't want the GM-player contract and consensus storytelling might still get some of the RP goodness.  

More to come...

[Jeremy Cole]

Maybe such a product would have better hits from the Dragonlance readers.  I'm thinking of a couple of god-awful 'novelist-GMs' I had a while back, who wrote novels and then pushed us players through them.  A product like the above would suit these people a lot better.

Jeremy

[Valamir]

Well, in point of fact, I don't think it will work.

But that's a far cry from me saying it shouldn't be tried, and a farther cry from me telling you not to.

I've just seen alot of games go by that supposedly were going to bring new gamers into the hobby...but they never really seem to.  At least no more than personal invites to friends would have anyway.

So yeah, I'm doubtful that there is such a thing as a gateway game...but I wouldn't dream of telling you not to do it.

I'm not really argueing anything...but if your looking for some specific contribution...my advice would be to start by trying to figure out why those other games weren't successful at being a gateway and make sure to account for that before trying the same thing.

[Le Joueur]

My advice would be to start by trying to figure out why those other games weren't successful at being a gateway and make sure to account for that before trying the same thing.

Thank you and well said.

If I had to boil it all down to one line from a designer's perspective?  I'd say, "Former 'gateway' products looked too much like role-playing games."  What I think is necessary to 'prime the pump,' is a product that is incontrovertibly a role-playing game, but in no way looks like one.  Get 'em playing something they think is clearly in 'their favorite realm,' then go 'psst, hey kid, come look at this.'

Or something like that.

Fang Langford