Spike, arrow, and rapier damage

[MrGeneHa]

The table you're looking for already exists. A puncture wound is a puncture wound is a puncture wound, and a Rapier *CAN* shatter an elbow, tear muscles, or sever tendons, ligaments, or major blood vessels. And generally wreak havoc on a limb just as easily as it would on a head or torso.

Hey Bob.  Sorry I didn't respond till now.  Your message and Jake's only now showed up on my end.

And if you like, don't even call this a discussion.  I honestly want to learn.  Will a thrust from a rapier (ST+2) really do more damage to a thigh than a thrust from a great sword (ST+1) or a cut and thrust (ST+1)?  I accept the arguments I've read so far, on other Subjects, that a rapier does more damage than these weapons to a head; but there are arguments there that they do less damage to an arm or leg.

A kendo and fencing friend told me the same thing.

I really haven't made up my mind yet.  Though I do feel pretty confident that thin weapons have less chance to cut blood vessels (but that's not enough to justify a new table, even for personal use).

If you or anyone can present credentials or source material, I'll give your statements more weight.  (E.g., "I'm an emergency room physician, and..." or "I'm an historical European martial arts instructor, taught by..."  I know these people are on some RPG discussion boards).

About rapiers: I'm assuming the TRoS rapier to be the historical rapier from the 16th century on.  They sometimes did have pretty broad blades, and the ultra thin sport fencing blade was pretty rare.  Thus, it may not be the best example for this subject.

Gene

[prophet118]

well see the thing is, that little notice on the bottom of the book... about being approved by ARMA...

doesn that mean something?...i dont know how much is true about it, or even how much they looked at it..jake could answer that alot better than i ever could

[toli]

Will a thrust from a rapier (ST+2) really do more damage to a thigh than a thrust from a great sword (ST+1) or a cut and thrust (ST+1)?  

If you or anyone can present credentials or source material, I'll give your statements more weight.  (E.g., "I'm an emergency room physician, and..." or "
Gene

The rapier might do more damage because it is faster, better able to target vitals and  being thinner would actually slide into the body more easily reaching more vital areas.  Just a thought.

If you wanted to be really detailed, I suppose any thrusting weapon with a blade as well would do more damage than just a  thurst.  A bodkin arrow might penetrate plate, but wouldn't do as much damage as a hunting arrow designed to induce bleeding.  You could just use the regular tables but add or subtract some bleeding dependign upon the weapon.

I would imagine that thrusting weapons would do more damage to the torso than cutting ones (not exactly what you're asking).  On the torso, your rib cage would protect your blood vessels and organs from most slashes while stabs could enter between the ribs and hit your heart etc.  Even in the abdomen where you don't have ribs most of the blood vessels are quite deep.  On your abdomen the muscle mass might keep slashes from getting at vital areas while a stabe would more easily get inside to where there are organs and blood vessels. (Most of the major blood vessels run dorsally (on the back wall of the abdomen).  

On your neck major vessels are more exposed and I think any good slashing strike would be highly likely to kill you by cutting a carotid or jugular.  

Slashes to your arms would be a bit weird.  Most would be downstrokes or side strokes that would probably hit bone before hitting your brachial arteries which run kind of on the inside.  Having had a few shoulder injuries, they can be quite painful and would quickly reduce CP.  I tore muscles in my shoulder playing lacrosse years ago.  I couldn't raise my arm for weeks.  I certainly wasn't going to bleed to death but I also couldn't have mounted much of an offense against any one.  I would have lost at least 1/2 my cp if not 2/3 (right arm).


In your legs the femoral arteries are also kind of on the inside.  A good chop to the groin would be pretty likely to hit one (illiac or femoral) and cause you to bleed to death, quickly.  Having just sprained my ankle (basket ball this time), I can't walk and standing  is hard enough...again I'm not going to bleed to death but...my CP is definitely down.....

[Jake Norwood]

Now I feel like I can get involved.

The puncture damage tables are meant to reflect the fact that thrusts do less damage to the limbs and a lot more the the head and torso--so no modification is needed. As for a rapier shattering a bone on the way through...I don't know, to tell you the truth, but they *are* nasty little suckers and can penetrate a skull (both sides) with minimal difficulty. They were extraordinarily stiff (*not* whippy), and so while it's probably true that a rapier to the arm would do less structural damage than a longsword thrust to the arm, I think in game terms the difference is *completely* negligable, and really amounts to color, as the longsword will penetrate shallow with a slightly broader wound (and only slightly...like less than 2cm...these aren't final fantasy swords, here) and the rapier will pucnture more deeply (again, though, only slightly...muscle and skin puncture almost effortlessly). Make sense?

Ah, credentials...I'm a Western Martial arts instructor (ARMA), and the kid of a doctor who vividly remembers the gross anatomy lab and lots of forensics books. An expert...hell no. Got an idea...yeah.

As for the ARMA approved bit, it was read over by several ARMA members and brought to John CLements, the ARMA director by them, who loved what he heard and played and said "let's endorse this." ARMA generally has an anti-RPG stance, even though many of us play, because we're trying to separate ourselves from boffer groups and the like. That's what makes the ARMA endorsment special. JC attended Origins GameCon with me in July, and we correspond often and frequently, as he visits up here once a year (he's coming in January, btw, for anyone that's close-by and wants to train with him). The "ARMA approved" is really solid. It would have to be to use their logo (something they guard rather closely is their association with others).

Hope that helps.

Jake

[MrGeneHa]

Honestly, at this point, I had already been convinced it was a lousy idea.  Even if an experienced ARMA person hadn't commented otherwise.

At most, I might lower BL for some weapons in their notes.

Thanks for all the advice, hopefully my next idea will be more usefull!

Gene

[MrGeneHa]

I actually did find some reference today online about damage from rapiers to various body parts.  I don't consider online sources as totally credible.

http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml
http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/kill2.shtml

However, these articles do have extensive bibliographies.  When I get a chance to hit the other end of Chicago, I'll try to read the books in the U of C Library.  That could be a while.

The author of the web article believes rapiers were pretty lousy at piercing bones, and offers citations.  In some cases, the skull or ribs bent rapiers.

[Jake Norwood]

First off, Bravo! Those are excellent articles. I only skimmed them, but I'm still impressed. I read the bone injury part pretty thoroughly, though, and it left me asking what they were referring to as a "rapier." I'll explain...

See, the term "rapier" is used to mean lots of things, both historically and in the (very different) jargon of academics and (especially) curators. Most properly (note the "most") a rapier had a blade between 3 and 4' long, was *very* stiff, and may even have had a triangular cross-section. I think that for such an item to bend on skull would be greatly unlikely (but possible, I suppose). On the other hand, a small sword, epee, or even italian dueling saber would much more likely bend in such a situation.

At least that's my take on it. On the other hand, I love being proven wrong (or at least slightly so) with good sources.

Jake