TMW:COTEC - Reality Expectations, & Descriptive Concepts

[RobMuadib]

Hey All

So, I am working on the design Architecture elements of the game, as
well as the "mythos" elements present in the universe. I have talked
about this idea bit before in this
thread .


Anyway, I have worked on the idea more and was hoping for some
feedback to better evolve the concept.


The way I concieve of it now, the game is built in three main
layers. At the bottom layer is the basic mechanics and the Design
Architecture built with them. This works much like "powers" in HERO,
except that mine are even a bit more generic, called simply Effect
Templates, which are used to construct individual metabilities. I have
evolved the idea of 'simulative architectures', to approach the idea of
individual design systems, but still relying on a effect based simplicity of
points, and abstract/seamless Scores methodology to define stuff. Next,
we have the universe mythos layers, which defines the larger universe
against which the game is set, defines common components of the game
worlds, etc. And at top level, you have your collaborative gaming stuff.



So, where I am having a bit of concern is in mating the mythos to the
design architecture. Specifically, I came up with the idea of Apotheogma
(yes I know it's spelled wierd). Which work like something like Torg
Axioms, or Multiverser Bias, or Vinge's "Zones of Thought". Specifically,
they represent hard "reality" limits on what is possible within an individual
Sphere. I have six of them, Corporeal (body/metahuman abilities), Mental
(Psi abilities), Spiritual (Magic/divine abilities/realities), Social (social
forms possible), Technological (your classic tech levels.), and
Cosmological (Which determines how attuned the Sphere is to the
rest of the Million Worlds, which determines difficulty of breaching Sphere,
as well possiblity of  'outer dimensions', 'gates', 'realm systems', etc.


So these will basically provide me with 'Reality" scores for each of these
areas inherent to a universe, as well as to people in that Sphere. This will
tie into contradiction rules, which prevent the use of certain abilities if
they require a higher 'reality' score than is present. With two classes of
entities in the game having ability to cuase reality contradictions despite
that, ala Torg.


So how I was considering doing this is I would put together my list of
effect templates, and relate the possible effect types with certain levels of
the different reality scores for Metabilities. (Social & Tech are easy to
implement, though Effects will probably play in Tech & skills/perks in
social). So at the low end, for Magic say, you'd have some sense type
abilities, "bonus" type abilities, truthsaying, prophecies, farseeing,
magical mendings, blessings type stuff. etc enhancement of existing
abilities while at the higher end you'd have more outrageous reality
altering stuff, magical attacks, defenses, summonings, creations,
teleportations, dimensional movement, Shape changes, duplications, etc.


The other wrinkle is that in addition to the general ability "level of effect",
you can also rate them on power. (Metabilities have a Power Score which
their parameters are determined from, which can obviously vary.) Which
will probably be intrinsic to the main reality score, so the higher above the
required level of effect, the greater power levels it is possible at.


This score would only rate what is possible, not necessarily what exists in
that world.

So you might have

Farstars Sphere:
Apotheogms:
Corporeal- 15 (alien metabilities)
Mental-22 (Psionics is prevalent)
Spiritual- 4 (no magic, miracles, religion is practiced however)
Social-20 (advanced galactic federation)
Technological - 20 (FTL by Shunt drive, Mecha, Energy weapons, etc)
Cosmological - 3 (No contact with other Spheres, very difficult to breach)

So what do you guys think of this approach, any other ideas on how to
make this work/rate the system? Part of the reason for this is to provide a
meaningful shorthand for players to describe elements and 'reality
expectations' among worlds. As well as provide a baseline to guide the
world creation of invidual groups using the system.

[Mike Holmes]

Where would our universe rate? Or do I miss the point?

Mike

[RobMuadib]

Mike

Hey, thanks for weighing in on this. It seems I am caught up in outlining
this element, but I don't know what it is, so maybe I am trying to talk it
out. As for our "own universe" I haven't worked it all out yet, I am still
putting together the concepts.


Based on the system I sketched, and fudging some numbers, our own
universe would be something like,


The Real World:
Apotheogms:
Corporeal- 8 (alien metabilities)
Mental-1 (Precognition may exist)
Spiritual- 1 (Minor miracles may exist)
Social-12 (Representative democracies, social welfare, universal rights recognized, etc)
Technological - 15 (nuclear fission, transistors, information age)
Cosmological - 1 (No contact with other Spheres, greater universe may be thought to exist)

The Idea for an individual Apogtheogm is something like,
Spiritual Apogtheogm:
0- No Supernatural reality exists
2- Remote Sensing/Precognition may exists
5- Spiritual entities may exist
6- Detection of Aura's/Spirit mediums possible
8- Boons/Curses possible (+/- Action attempts)
10- Enhancements/Enervations
12- Supernatural Beings may exist
14- Alterations(bread & loaves)/healings (laying on hands)
15- Summonings/Creations
17- Magical Attacks/Defenese/Flight/Divine Scourges/Darkness/flash Attacks/Telekinesis & partin of waters/etc.
19- Divine Beings/Greater Spirits exist
21- Teleportations/Dimensional Travel



So I basically come up with a graded lists of Effects possible, drawn from
my list of Effect templates which are generic "power' effects, at different
Apogtheogm Scores. Basically I see these are large scale Dials that the
players use in the Tenets stage when designing the world, this is the part
where "We control the vertical. We Control The Horizontal" as it were.
They also serve as "concrete' universe traits, in that they allow the
Sphere to be fixed within the game's larger universe, and allow for the
handling of reality clashes & contradictions to be dealt with.


I recently halted work on the metaplay chapter, right at the production
design bit, where i have the players define the production scripts, these
Apotheogm's would be some of the rules pro-scripts that the group would
set when creating the Sphere they are using as a narrative environment.
So I guess I am wondering if there is a better way to integrate the
concept into the mechanics, one that acts as fulcrum between the
collaborative level and the mechanics level, leveraging the game universe
mythos of The Million Worlds. which I covered in this
thread .

Another thing that has been causing me some consternation is the
guidelines for putting together Setting, particularly in
determining the scope and nature of the world. This comes in part
because i just finished reading the World Building & Aliens & Alien
Societies from the science fiction writer's series. So now my head is full of
astronomy and astrophysics dealing with the formation of planets,
geophysics and orbital mechanics, CHON life-cycles, atmospheres,
climates, and all kinds of details of "alien" biologies and stuff. Not to
mention the idea of dealing with worlds with arbritrary physics. I want to
at least come up with a descriptive system to guide players in putting this
stuff together.  Something that engenders the "vast enthralling"
imaginative thrust I want the game to have. Like I said, I am
procrastinating on writing up this part of the system because of these
background concerns. So if anyone has pointed advice to help me whip
this into shape i'd appreciate it.


thanks

p.s. I found out that there is a rather slim margin of a sweet spot for good
terrestial worlds within an unary solar system, and non-earthlike worlds
are really complex to figure out it seems, let alone binary star systems
and such. The classical "alternate earth" approach is not such a bad idea
when you look at non & near terrestial options. Oh, and more than one
moon is rather complex situation to have too. In short, cool fantasy stuff
isn't very plausible.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Rob,

My head just exploded. Can you help a dummy grasp what to do with this material?

Say you're at GenCon, at the Forge booth. A person comes up and talks all about how he was totally into Aria but it kept slipping out of his and the group's grasp. He tried Universalis but found that its drive toward climactic conflict wasn't what they wanted either. They want world-building that's fun and meaty.

How do you explain this part so that his head doesn't explode too?

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

What I'm most concerned about is that these are supposed to be potentialities, right? Thus if the Social means that then can have a galactic empire, but the rest don't indicate that they'd be able to get off planet, then they'll not have a galactic empire, but the Earthbound cognate?

See, there seems to be a lot of ways to look at these things. Or, what Ron said. :-)

Mike

[RobMuadib]

Hi Rob,

My head just exploded. Can you help a dummy grasp what to do with this
material?


Say you're at GenCon, at the Forge booth. A person comes up and talks
all about how he was totally into Aria but it kept slipping out of his and the
group's grasp. He tried Universalis but found that its drive toward
climactic conflict wasn't what they wanted either. They want world-building
that's fun and meaty.

How do you explain this part so that his head doesn't explode too?

Ron

Hey, I hope the Apotheogma stuff doesn't seem terribly obtuse. So let me
have a go at explaining it.

The Apotheogma concept is the seventh of the Omyraen Tenets which
describe the workings on the games meta-universe, The Million Worlds.
Basically, when a Sphere, an invidiual universe/world among the Million
Worlds is created, it is imprinted with a manifold metaphysical pattern
called the Anwa Tilasm, Arabic for "Divine Pattern of Being", which sets
the broad limits for what is possible for man within a Sphere. These are
represented by the Apotheogma, which sets the boundaries and limits for
man within "ontologues", areas of being, determining the relationship and
possibilities available to Man within a Sphere.


From a world-buildng/universe standpoint, the Apotheogms allow for the
creation of truly different realities to exist, in which certain things are, or
are not possible for man. This is can be important in campaigns in which
the elements of the mythos, such as the Omyrean Incarnates and Eternal
Avatars exist, or when characters are able to naturally travel between
Spheres through Uwal Fatim, or other possiblities. They provide a
mechanic by which you can deal with persona's in worlds were magic
doesn't work, or some version of high tech is fundamentally impossible,
or even worlds where higher social orders are fundamentally impossible
for the people to achieve. On the other hand, it can also allow
for "Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's court" situations, where the
possibility of high-tech exists, but the populace hasn't yet achieved it, etc.


It is a mechanic to maintain the integrity of individual Spheres at a
Metaphysical level. Thus you can have a meta-universe of incredible
possibilities, without individual worlds being broken by character's
with "impossible" abilities within them, or by breaking character's
expectations in worlds where 'impossible' things exist. This way you can
judge if a character is able to use an ability within a Sphere, or to explain
why in a realm of co-existing Spheres, why the high-tech peoples haven't
been able to take over the low-tech world, or whatever. It's like Vernor
Vinge's Zones of Thought in A Fire Upon The Deep, if someone could pop
over to any part of the universe and use Asimovian magic to fix
everything, your story won't be very engaging.



------------------------

So, how's that Ron, do you see the point of the Apotheogma now? A
minor point, the Apotheogma are more of a foundational
background/mythos element. They support the existence of different
worlds. So, in a game they might not be used much, but I want to relate
the entire world design process to them. As they essentially serve as a
framework in which to view the creation of game entities/world elements
with the design system. I also want them to help pitch the speculative
thrust of the game world design.




Thanks for your interest

Best

(P.S. Scanners was a hella cool movie, Cronenberg rules, and like Michael
Ironside is immortal, even if he does die in every movie:))

[Mike Holmes]

I guess the question is whether or not they're used in play. I mean, yes, they define the universe in which play may occur, but is the only use set up? Or do the numbers have a mechanical effect during play?

For instance, if something is taken from one Universe to another and it exceeds, say, the tech limit, does it cease to work? Or does it carry some portion of it's own reality with it that allows it to work?

We need an actual example of the mechanic in play.

Mike

[Garbanzo]

Specifically, they represent hard "reality" limits on what is possible within an individual Sphere.
...
This score would only rate what is possible, not necessarily what exists in
that world.

Rob-
This is a twisty bit.  In Torg, the axioms rated reality At This Moment, which is what I'm getting from your Real World example.  Earth At This Moment has representative democracies, nuclear fission.

But if the apotheogma rates what a given reality Is Maximally Capable Of, that's something else.  I like it, but it's counterintuitive - so much so that you slipped on it yourself (er, unless you believe that in the Real World here there is no more progress possible).

Essentially, when drawing up a Sphere, you've got to think about the furthest possible expansion that is conceivable in that Sphere, regardless of what's going on right now.  As I said, I like it, but it's a little twisty.  
It makes a gap between what characters can see and what they can do, opening some interesting doors.

(But it would be a waste of a good idea if Spheres all over happened, At This Moment, to be At Maximum Capacity.  In that case, might as well just define things the other way.)

-Matt

[Mike Holmes]

Well said, Matt. That was what I was trying to say in my first post. It's a real issue.

Mike

[RobMuadib]

Specifically, they represent hard "reality" limits on what is possible within an individual Sphere.
...
This score would only rate what is possible, not necessarily what exists in
that world.

Rob-
This is a twisty bit.  In Torg, the axioms rated reality At This Moment, which is what I'm getting from your Real World example.  Earth At This Moment has representative democracies, nuclear fission.

But if the apotheogma rates what a given reality Is Maximally Capable Of, that's something else.  I like it, but it's counterintuitive - so much so that you slipped on it yourself (er, unless you believe that in the Real World here there is no more progress possible).

Essentially, when drawing up a Sphere, you've got to think about the furthest possible expansion that is conceivable in that Sphere, regardless of what's going on right now.  As I said, I like it, but it's a little twisty.  
It makes a gap between what characters can see and what they can do, opening some interesting doors.

(But it would be a waste of a good idea if Spheres all over happened, At This Moment, to be At Maximum Capacity.  In that case, might as well just define things the other way.)

Matt (& Mike)

Hey, thanks for bringing this up, i was missing it since I am still focusing
on how to construct these Apotheogma scores in the first place. So, from
my "mythos' and stuff, I like the idea of the Apotheogma as potential,
which hasn't necessarily been realized.  Part of this goes with my meta-
plot mythos ideas of the Omyreans trying to bring about the 'end' of the
universe by binding the Anwa Tilasm patterns of each sphere into an
artifact of the Ubiqnomen, to rebuild their fabled city of Midian and bring
about the return of their god, Alphain. Despite the fact that Alphain exists
currently as the substance of the universe. Once Anwa Tilasm has
been 'removed' then the sphere collapses, it's reality structure having
been destroyed, or something.

OK, so we have Apotheogma as potentials, which haven't necessarily
been reached in all Spheres.   Further they are static and unchangeable
short of destroying the Sphere. Though you could have bizarre Multi-
Sphere realms I suppose, but that's out there stuff.

So, each Sphere as an Apotheogma Profile, as well as each 'Persona'
from that Sphere, essentially an imprint of the Spheres' Anwa Tilasm
within his being.  The Sphere's Profile determines what is possible within
that Sphere, if a being attempts to use an ability that is beyond that
Sphere's Apotheogma, it doesn't work. Whatever super-metaphysical
pattern needed to support that effect doesn't exist, so the energy or effort
is lost within the reality, or something. The Personae will find physical
realities which don't operate according to his experience, and find himself
suffering a mental block causing him difficulty to employ the ability or
concept.

Now, when a Personae travels to another Reality, he has the Apotheogma
imprint, this provides a soft limit in what he can do, in that in would
require him more effort to learn to use abilities beyond his Apotheogma,
the greater the difference, the greater the difficulty, which basically
represents his need to alter the Anwa Tilasm imprint within him to include
the new pattern, or something. He would also suffer extra penalties as
well, as the methods are beyond his ken, as it were. (Penalties based on
different in Apotheogma scores.) So, if a character from a low tech
apotheogm world tried to use a blaster or whatever, he would suffer
greater penalties due to it being 'unnatural' and 'incomprehensible' to him.

So the Sphere's Apotheogma provide a hard limit, while a Persona's
Apotheogma imprint is a soft limit that can be overcome with difficulty, in
a Sphere that supports higher realities.


Finally, we have two special group of character's, Omyrean Incarnates &
Eternal Avatars, which have knowledge of the true nature of the universe
and can channel and control the Mithal Nur al-Mahat, allowing them to the
ability to cause reality contradictions in different Spheres, allowing them
to use abilities beyond what is supported within a Sphere. The difficulty
depends on the difference between their 'native' Apotheogma, and the
Sphere in which they are present. (basically it's a special background
ability that the players can choose to throw in to a game if they want to
have a multi-world game, or something.)

So, does that make sense in how to handle them? Admittedly, in a
flatworld game(In which there is no contact with other Spheres), they are
only serve as guidelines and design considerations to the Company during
creation of the Narrative Environment.  But, they also allow for setting the
world against the larger background of the game universe.

As a design tool, I hope for them to provide a convenient means to
establish 'reality expectations' among a group, a common reference point
in describing world concepts. They already do in part by pitching towards
Speculative world elements (i.e. metabilities).

So any advice or comments on this idea, or other problems you see?

thanks for your interest