Real Swordsmanship and how it pertains to TRoS.

[Jake Norwood]

Some of these are German, some Italian, a few are modern, some are modern translations of the above languages, and some are from english fighting schools. This is the "daily" jargon that isn't covered in TROS's main rulebook.

Footwork
Passing step (step where one foot passes the other, forward or back)
Simple step (front leg moves forward, back leg follows)
Great Step (as a simple step, but almost twice as far)
Backstep (as a simple step, moving backwards so that the back leg moves first)
False or Stolen step (back leg comes up to the front leg, which in turn moves forward. May be reversed to go backwards, often with a leap)
Cockstep (fore leg kicks forward as the back leg leaps off. Best combined with false steps. A false and two cock steps is pretty much a Balestro)
Traverse (steps off the line)
Crooked steps (used to traverse)
Volte (a turn...there's lots of these)
Pivot (a kind of volte)
Leap (Like a great step, but even bigger)
Void (to move back or out of the way)
Slip the leg (to pass back as a reaction to a leg attack)

Sword Anatomy
Blade (ricasso, strong, weak, point, long/true edge, short/false/half edge)
Hilt (pommel, grip, cross)
Long or True edge (the forward "knuckle edge." Single-edge swords only have this one)
Short or False edge (the back edge)
Cross (later called quillons)
Point (the tip...)
Pommel (the "little apple" at the bottom of the hilt)
Strong (called "stark or forte; the half of the blade closest to the hilt; used in defense and binding)
Weak (schwech or foible; the half of the blade furthest from the hilt; used for cutting and killing)
Ricasso (the few inches of the blade closest to the hilt; often very thick or covered in leather)

Attacks
Zornhau "Wrath Strike" (downward diagonal cut)
Scheitelhau "parting strike" (downward vertical cut)
Oberhau "over-strike" (any downward blow)
Unterhau "understrike" (any upward blow)
Krumphau "crooked strike" (downward strike with crossed arms and crooked steps)
Mittelhau "Middle strike" (lateral cuts)
Zwerchau "traversing strike" (high lateral cuts to the ear with the false edge from the right, and the true from the left)
Ort (thrust)
Zorn Ort "wrath thrust" (a long extend thrust)
Das Gayzlen "the spring" (a single-handed cut at the legs with wicked extension)
Ringen am scwert "wrestling at the sword" (grappling, etc)
Bind (when two swords are in contact)
Winden "winding" (the crazy stuff that happens while in the bind, consisting of winding the blade from position to position)
False (a feint)

Counters
Hengen ort "hanging point" (a sloping position with the hilt high and the point low, in front of the head...very useful)
Coverta "covering" (using exsiting guards and positions to cover openings
Absetzen un schnitt "setting aside and slicing" (title says it)
Versetzen "displacement" (displacing your blade, his blade, or your body)
Nachreisen "travelling after" (counter-cutting just after a blow)
Kron "the crown" (using the hilt in front of the head to catch and re-direct an attack
Meisterhau/Volerica "master cut/the jewel" (counter cutting a split second after your opponnent, deflecting his blade and landing your strike in one motion. Very difficult, very effective)
Redoppio "redoubling" (striking down at an incoming attack from any direction)
rota "the wheel" (an under-cut followed by an over cut, where the first beats or deflects and the second kills)

Stances
High/wrath/di donna/vom tag (high guards over the head or shoulder, point back)
Low/alber ("the fool")/middle iron door (low guards with point forward)
eisenpfort/True iron door (low guard, point sideways...there's picture of this in TROS p. 75)
nebenhut/Low lying tail (like iron door, but point back; picture on p. 52)
short/middle/pflug (middle guards with hilt at hip level, point at opponent's face)
Ochs/finestra/prima (high guards with the hilt by the head, point forward. There a picture of this (sort of) on p. 74; hengen is similar to this, with the point down)

Miscellany
Gaukler/buffalo/dance-fighter/clown-fighter/juggler (derogatory terms for fighters without skill or who "Play fight")
Fechtmeister "fight-master" (a master fighter and teacher)
Sharps (sharp swords)
Blunts (blunted swords)
Federn "feathers" (steel practice swords)
Wasters (wooden practice swords)
Playing the Prize/Prizefighting (public bouts for money or titles)
Fechtschule/salle d'armes/school of defence (names for fencing schools that taught all manner of weapons)
Blossen "openings" (the 4 targets on a human body--upper, lower, inside (usually right of the opponent), outside (usually left of the opponent)

What else are we looking for?

Jake

[Valamir]

What else are we looking for?

Lets see, if you're feeling really ambitious, how about scripting out a few exchanges (like maybe one of your recent bouts) using the above verbage the way you'd describe it in "sword school" and then converting the events to TROS rules...

[Jake Norwood]

Um, okay. Here's a short one from last week (as best as I remember) in TROS form, with above terminology.

I'm fighting Mike Van Dusen
First few exchanges white-white as we circle. I'm in vom tag (high guard) and he's in pflug (middle guard). I'm in an agressive stance, he's in a neutral stance.

Round one
I drop red (go in for attack) and cut zornhau from my right (downward diag) at the full arm (read: about half of my dice or so). He voids (partial evasion) and traverses (crooked step) and cuts zornhau from his left, which I choose to counter with a hengen and a pivot out, point sloped to the right. I'm successful, but not full prepared and I don't pull the move off perfectly (I fail to receive the attack on the Stark, or strong portion of the blade), so we "tie" in TROS terms. He keeps offense.

Round two
He cuts scheitelhau (downward vertical) with a simple step. I counter with a redel (a kind of wheel over the head, resulting in a displacement, or versetzen) and follow up with a a right zornhau again for whatever dice I've got left. He fails to void or cover (coverta) and the blow lands on the side of his head. I have offense.

Round three
I void back to make sure that he acknolwedges the hit as good and doesn't just strike me back (there's very little CP loss with sparring gear). He acknowledges. Fight over. If it were "real" I wound have struck again, probably straight down or from the other side diagonally.

Short fight. Once we moved in, about 3-5 seconds, if that.

Here's another fight. The next one, in fact.

We'll skip circling...

Round one
I open the fight with a massive left-to-right zornhau; this requires that my feet pass to the right somewhat. Mike voids to his right (partial evasion) and strikes me with a rising zwerchau (false edge overhand or lateral cut...you have to see it to get it) right in the chin. End of fight. Beautiful.

For some really insane descriptions of this stuff read Joachim Meyer's Fechtbuch from 1570, in translation at www.schielhau.org. You'll recognize some of the art there, too.

Jake

[GreatWolf]

Interesting.  As I look at the Fechtbuch, I see stances very similar to the kenjutsu that I was studying.  (Come to think of it, I think that my sensei made the comparison between kenjutsu and German longsword himself.)  The Ox stance looks like haso, the Plow and Fool like gaidan, the Roof is jodan, and the Long Point like chodan.  The theory and techniques, from what you describe, seem quite similar as well.  Goes to show that, once the mystical elements are removed, even the Eastern martial arts are about "what worked".

Thanks for the link, BTW.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

[Darren Hill]

Here's what I'm thinking:

A 5-20 entry section on each of the following:

Footwork
Attacks
Counters
Defenses
Miscellany

Sound big enough?

Jake

It's a start ;)

No, this sounds like a great idea. Get to work! (After making sure we all get our OBAM's of course.)

[Jake Norwood]

Um, I did it allready. It's 5 posts up...

Jake

[Darren Hill]

Um, I did it allready. It's 5 posts up...

Jake

Yes, sorry about that. I hadn't realised there was a second page to the thread. Oops.

[Ashton]

Heh...

I train pretty hard, but I don't want anybody's teeth cracking. Just givin' you a hard time, Ashton.

Jake

'sokay. We spar with a few other safety features in place that doesn't allow for "true" rapier, but the coach also teaches the reasons for the safety measures so that we understand what it is that is different.

We drill using the historic techniques, or as best as we can figure using static plates, occassionally obtuse terminology, and not knowing the native language of the manuals we are referencing.

An amusing aside... in rapier, when two people end up corps a corps somebody usually asks what happens next. Invariably, those of us with any "heavy" experience answers "It becomes German".

[Jason Lee]

Guuarh!  I rolled to resist and I failed!

I'm ignernt as to German rapier.  Why couldn't you practice it 'for safety reasons'?  I understand perfectly well not practicing certain techniques or practicing at lower speed/power until a certain level of control/ability is developed...but not at all?  What am I missing here?  My curiosity has the best of me.

And...

Don't want to get all oriental again, but I agree with Seth...  I can think up approriate japanese labels for a fair amount of the lexicon Jake threw up (limitted by my beginner's understanding of kendo/iaido).  As a wierd example:  If I'm reading the description right, in Aikido we'd call the Cockstep/Balestro a Zeshin-Koshin "Forward Movement-Backward Movement", heh, or a Tohei Hop.  The backward part shows up in jo (5' staff) work a lot, to evade or cover ground; both directions show up in throws; I haven't seen it show up in sword work as of yet.  The sword work in Aikido is admitted narrow in scope, however.  To me, it seems like the primary sword tactic is Meisterhau/Volerica, but I guess you could say that about the whole art.  Just an interesting comparison to me, nothing more.

[Jake Norwood]

We practice German stuff out here constantly, with a large dose of control. I'm not sure what ashton's coach's reasons are, but liability might be one. We don't worry about it, especially among the senior students, where we really get rough.

Jake

[Irmo]

Gareth (contracycle) is currently trying to talk me into a Swordsmanship Jargon list for TROS. I think he's just about convinced me. Until then, check out these links:

http://www.thearma.org/historicalfencing_definitions.htm
http://www.thearma.org/terms.htm

You'll see it's a lot of stuff. Still, I think a gross simplificaiton is possible for TROS use.

Jake

One caveat:

http://www.thearma.org/terms3.htm lists

'Parrier-dolch - German term for using the dagger's quillons to trap a sword blade '

That is inaccurate. It merely is the german term for a parrying dagger, translated quite literally.

Also, the translation of 'Degen – A German word from the 1400's generally meaning a sword, often slender, but also sometimes a Raufdegen or "brawling sword", or a broader Haudegen, though never a rapier'
should be treated with care.  The phrase 'though never a rapier' is a bit stretching, since what one understands under the term 'rapier' is largely dependent on what country and period and language one is talking about. The term itself was used in many languages at different times to refer to different things, and in the fashion used above, one restricts oneself to a specific meaning. Also, Degen can also be used to refer to people, namely fighters. "The Count arrived with twenty Degen at his side" does not refer to him being a walking arsenal.

[Ashton]

I'm ignernt as to German rapier. Why couldn't you practice it 'for safety reasons'? I understand perfectly well not practicing certain techniques or practicing at lower speed/power until a certain level of control/ability is developed...but not at all? What am I missing here? My curiosity has the best of me.

Part of it is just that so much of German rapier technique (i.e. the majority of it) is grappling, punching, and using the entire weapon offensively.  We also have a decently high turn over rate which is good in that we always get new people in the class, but bad in that you almost always have a substantial portion of the class that lacks the necessary control. That and we take a style at a time and in the past year and a half we've worked through an early Spanish style, Agrippa, Capo Ferro, some Fabris, Angelo (smallsword), and McBane (also smallsword)
which means that something has to get cut. Part of it is just what the coach feels like covering. Oh, and our class is held in an honest-to-God fencing academy that generally caters to sport fencers. So it has fencing insurance, which is a very different beast from martial arts insurance (different types of incidents and accidents are covered). Hope that answers your question.

Probably the biggest disadvantage to learning rapier is always not having the proper weapon to train with. The various rapier styles were designed around significantly different styles of weapons. There is no good way around this, unless I had the funds to go out and buy a new trainer each time we switched styles.

[Salamander]

Part of it is just that so much of German rapier technique (i.e. the majority of it) is grappling, punching, and using the entire weapon offensively.  We also have a decently high turn over rate which is good in that we always get new people in the class, but bad in that you almost always have a substantial portion of the class that lacks the necessary control. That and we take a style at a time and in the past year and a half we've worked through an early Spanish style, Agrippa, Capo Ferro, some Fabris, Angelo (smallsword), and McBane (also smallsword)
which means that something has to get cut.

Sounds like a well rounded education in regards to fence with Rapier and Small Sword. Does your schola cover other stuff as well?

Part of it is just what the coach feels like covering. Oh, and our class is held in an honest-to-God fencing academy that generally caters to sport fencers. So it has fencing insurance, which is a very different beast from martial arts insurance (different types of incidents and accidents are covered). Hope that answers your question.

So I wonder what the differences are...

Probably the biggest disadvantage to learning rapier is always not having the proper weapon to train with. The various rapier styles were designed around significantly different styles of weapons. There is no good way around this, unless I had the funds to go out and buy a new trainer each time we switched styles.

Now that is something I did not know. How interesting. So the best bet is to stick with a certain style and the resultant national version of the rapier, huh? Is there any crossover between the styles? Do certain weapons cross over as well? I am just so keen because after the long sword my instructor will be going into the rapier with us, and then maybe sword and buckler.

Do you own any weapons, Ashton? Just curious, if you don't want to answer, I apologize and understand...

[Ashton]

Sounds like a well rounded education in regards to fence with Rapier and Small Sword. Does your schola cover other stuff as well?

There are other, separate classes, that cover topics like battlefield weapons (currently they are covering Lichtenauer I believe, but it has also included Tallhoffer and sword and shield), and katana (not kendo). The majority of the Academy is geared toward varying levels of sport fencing and we currently have one Olympic hopeful, if not for next year, then for 2008. Sport fencing is also where many of us, myself included, started, eventually matriculating into the historic programs.

Now that is something I did not know. How interesting. So the best bet is to stick with a certain style and the resultant national version of the rapier, huh? Is there any crossover between the styles? Do certain weapons cross over as well? I am just so keen because after the long sword my instructor will be going into the rapier with us, and then maybe sword and buckler.

The best bet is to realize what the difference in the blades were and make your body behave accordingly, to keep to form and in the style that you were supposed to be fencing. Short of going out and spending much money on antiques or high end replicas, you are not going to find any one weapon that will sufficiently duplicate the weapon you are studying. More so if you hope to actually spar with it.
What makes it even more confusing is that the rapier evoloved over time as well.
The Agrippa (early Italian) weapon is relatively short and heavy and possesses a cutting edge. The attack principle was derived from contemporary military weapons, namely to drive the weight of the body behind each blow. One of the lunges involves taking a high guard (prima) and leaning forward with the feet together, and letting the body fall forward into the lunge. The guard is not held for long and is moved through as the attack is made.

Later Italian styles (Capo Ferro, Fabris) started to get longer and longer still (they started importing Spanish steel), and started to lose the edge, developing more into what is considered a true thrust.  

To the best of my knowledge the one weapon that really crossed national lines, being popular in both France and what would come to be known as the British Isles is the smallsword (not really a rapier I know, but for the purposes of discussion). That actually isn't as hard to duplicate as a modern epee is a fairly close representation. Different fighters and maestros had different philosophies regarding the weapon, and there was even a form of small sword practiced in the French Court that did not use footwork. All distance games and attacks were done out of the torso. There was also a "street" version that incorporated footwork.

Do you own any weapons, Ashton? Just curious, if you don't want to answer, I apologize and understand...

I do, a few wall hangers to look pretty and a few other functional blades in addition to my trainer, but nothing that I am phenomenally proud of. All of the long sharpy and pointy variety (I don't have much love for axes or the rest).

[Jason Lee]

Hope that answers your question.

Yes it does, thanks.