Real Swordsmanship and how it pertains to TRoS.

[Salamander]

Okay, here we can discuss the ideas of how real swordsmanship pertains to TRoS and discuss the trials & tribulations of learning to use those wonderful long bits of steel.

[Poenz]

Well how could I resist this thread?

I'm really just getting started with researching Historical European Swordsmanship (HES), so as with other aspects of TRoS, it will be good to hear Jake's opinion.  He's actually doing all this and one of the many things to look forward to with TRoS is seeing how he incorporates his more recent studies with future versions of the combat system.

Since there seem to be no HES groups in my immediate area, I'm resorting to the wealth of books that are out there on the subject.  The organization Jake is affiliated with, formerly HACA now ARMA, has copies of a wealth of older manuscripts published on their site; manuscripts that date from the time when these books were used as part of a curriculum designed to keep men alive in actual combat.

But since I don't read German or Italian, it also helps to have some interpretations of these texts, and some more general texts to put them in context.  So in addition to TRoS, here's what I've currently got in the stack on my reading table:

Hans Talhoffer: Medieval Combat
Mark Rector's translation of Talhoffer's 15th century "fechtbuch"

English Martial Arts
Maister Terry Brown's brief introduction to various styles of medieval fight

The Martial Arts of Renaissance Europe
Sydney Anglo.  A history of european martial arts of the time; just an enormous amount of great material here.  I'm drooling just thinking about it.

The Secret History of the Sword
J. Christoph Amberger.  An amazing mish-mash of history, myth, anecdote, and essay--all on our favorite subject.  He also has a great website with various essays; an important one of which warns against the dubious scholarship that is one of the hazard's of the information age.

Secrets of German Medieval Swordsmanship
Christian H. Tobler's translation and interpretation of Ringeck's commentaries on Liectenauer's peculiar fechtbuch-in-verse.  Lavishly illustrated with photos of Tobler's interpretation of the maneuvers.  If you're stuck someplace where you can't get to a HES organization, this work is a terrific resource for starting to learn some of this stuff.

So my question to those of you--and I know there are at least a few--who actually have studied this material, or some form of HES:  How does it figure in to your TRoS games?  

People new to all this would like to know...


~PO

[Jake Norwood]

Um...

Well, in true HES geek fashion, we describe all of our combats in proper German technique.

Jake

[Salamander]

Um...

Well, in true HES geek fashion, we describe all of our combats in proper German technique.

Jake

Oooh, there's a shocker!

I have been at this long enough to know there is a lot to learn... Milan does use the German terminology from time to time, but usually he just shows us and lets the drill happen. Close fighting is fun when you're the biggest guy on the field...

I am just seeing how effective it is to think as if you really are on the field using a yard of sharp steel. We did some demos with my wife's PC Rennatta (she games and fences with me!) and she got her butt kicked by Rülf (Spartan's PC) the first time, so I helped her a bit, and after fumbling through the rules (Thanks by the way, Spartan, very helpful.) lined her up. Rennatta hit Rülf three times in quick succession and Rülf went down fast.

[Jake Norwood]

Gareth (contracycle) is currently trying to talk me into a Swordsmanship Jargon list for TROS. I think he's just about convinced me. Until then, check out these links:

http://www.thearma.org/historicalfencing_definitions.htm
http://www.thearma.org/terms.htm

You'll see it's a lot of stuff. Still, I think a gross simplificaiton is possible for TROS use.

Jake

[Ashton]

To make things really confusing, I'm studying smallsword currently using Donald McBane's treatise on the same so I'm using his Anglicized terms. When I was starting in rapier I originally learned Agrippa (an Italian school of rapeir) and learned the guards using the Italian method of numbering. The German terminology does not work as well as the swords were being in a very different manor and the guards are extremely different.

Since then I've also learned a few other styles (mostly Italian schools of fighting).

As an amusing aside: where I take classes does not teach the German style of rapier for safety reasons.

[Jake Norwood]

Ha! Saftey!

Roger de Hovenden said, "A youth must have seen his blood flow and felt his teeth crack under the blow of his adversary, and have been thrown to the ground twenty times..."

Okay, so different times, I know I know, but still...

Jake

[Jake Norwood]

Here's what I'm thinking:

A 5-20 entry section on each of the following:

Footwork
Attacks
Counters
Defenses
Miscellany

Sound big enough?

Jake

[Bankuei]

Hi guys,

Are folks who study non-european sword arts welcome here as well?  I'm going to state for myself before some knucklehead runs in and spews garbage everywhere- East/west, don't matter.  There's just effective(I'm alive) and ineffective(um, bad) stuff, and its all based on the terrain, weapons, materials, armor, and tactics available.

Ok, that aside, I study a style of Pentjak Silat callled Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.  The primary weapons are swords and daggers, with a couple of other nifty weapons as well.  Cimande is primarily a close-in art, designed with fast choppy attacks towards limbs with the intent of quick disarm(that is, cut that hand!), followed up by finishing moves.  The weapons are usually sharp on one side, with a thick spine on the other side, allowing you to parry with the spine(strongest part) and also brace your hand or arm against it for additional support in cutting.

Um, other than that, it'd be really cool to hear from you european sword guys what's the differences in the various styles?

Chris

[Jake Norwood]

Of course they're welcome, in context. For example, when discussing "european" let's hold to that, when "asian" let's hold to that. I can't speak much at all about asian styles, so I'll keep clammed up. Anyone who practices a given martial art and wants to provide a jargon dictionary according to the model I set out up above is welcome to do so. Post it here.

Just state what your art is and what regions of Weyrth/earth it's pertinant to, as well as time period. A single paragraph should suffice. For non-euro styles, a discussion of what TROS manevuers are particularly appropriate (or not) would be helpful as well.

Jake

[Bankuei]

Hi Jake,

Cool.  Well, let's see here...

Cimande is a style developed from the Indonesian islands, tropical and jungle everywhere, rough, uneven terrain.  Most likely we're talking jungled mountainous areas around Shiragi, Kudara, Svarastra and maybe even Savari.  Cultural influences are native shamanism, Hinduism, Islam, and a hint of Buddhism, in that order.  Obviously the native religions and the Prophet are part of the scheme.

The style was developed highly on skirmish combat, not field warfare(jungles right?), although there's lots of training based on manuevering yourself to deal with multiple opponents.  One of the training philosophies is "Attacks come when there's more of them, they're armed, and its an ambush", so there's a good focus on that.  The hacks to the arms and legs presuppose little or no armor(jungles again), although there's a good amount of grappling and limb breaks available as well.

Specific stuff that makes Cimande in TROS:

Cut and Thrust, Dagger, Pugilism, Wrestling

Manuevers:

-Terrain Manuevers(a lot of)
Ground fighting, being mobile on the ground, multiple opponents, lots of training here.

-Cut
Snappy cuts with other hand supporting it, and/or whole body whipping into it for maximum damage.

-Grapple
Usually a set up followed by a breaking action

-Cut and Thrust manuevers
Pretty much everything else there, particularly Feints and Counters, Silat is a sneaky sort of thing.

Chris

[Ashton]

Ha! Saftey!

Roger de Hovenden said, "A youth must have seen his blood flow and felt his teeth crack under the blow of his adversary, and have been thrown to the ground twenty times..."

Okay, so different times, I know I know, but still...

Jake

*shrug* Not my rules, and I'm not the one that has to pay insurance on the space, so I'm not complaining. Still, it is hard to accurately spar when using techniques like "After binding out your opponent's blade, step in and punch the pommel into the hip joint". Besides, I'm allergic to hospitals.

It's also the only style I know that advocated the occasional placement of the free hand on the pommel for added thrust power.

[Salamander]

Ha! Saftey!

Roger de Hovenden said, "A youth must have seen his blood flow and felt his teeth crack under the blow of his adversary, and have been thrown to the ground twenty times..."

Okay, so different times, I know I know, but still...

Jake

*shrug* Not my rules, and I'm not the one that has to pay insurance on the space, so I'm not complaining. Still, it is hard to accurately spar when using techniques like "After binding out your opponent's blade, step in and punch the pommel into the hip joint". Besides, I'm allergic to hospitals.

It's also the only style I know that advocated the occasional placement of the free hand on the pommel for added thrust power.

Indeed, but Jake and admittedly myself study the German schools whilst reading up on the Italian stuff. So I am biased somewhat... Okay, confession is over. I agree that they are not your rules, and it is a very good reason you gave as to why the instructor won't teach German Rapier.

However, I have yet to start the Rapier, that happens in the fall, if my instructor has his way. From what I have seen, we will be learning German Rapier as well, but as Milan puts it, "very carefully"!

I guess it is all in what the teacher feels will give the best experience. I am not one to judge a person who is certainly a better swordsman than I, for now... ;)

[Anthony I]

Ha! Saftey!

Roger de Hovenden said, "A youth must have seen his blood flow and felt his teeth crack under the blow of his adversary, and have been thrown to the ground twenty times..."

Okay, so different times, I know I know, but still...

Jake

One favor Jake, when you are here in August giving your class, assuming I'll be your training dummy, I really do perfer NOT having my teeth crack....but "Was sehrt, das lehrt", eh?

[Jake Norwood]

Heh...

I train pretty hard, but I don't want anybody's teeth cracking. Just givin' you a hard time, Ashton.

Jake