Well of Souls 1

[Mike Holmes]

Oh, BTW, I'm pretty much just quoting Ron. :-)

One day I said that Narrativist GMs have to Railroad. And got the speech above, more or less. Then we did the important thread on Railroading to figure out whatinthehell it really was. Turns out it's a moving target that comes down to the player not liking the game because the GM makes the sort of decisions for him that he likes to make.

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

I'm greatful that you take your time to comment and help me out. I appreciate it. Before moving on to the Bangs of Dacius and Rickard, I'll dwell ever so briefly on what you have just said.

- Railroading and related matters

As far as finding ways to put pressure on, and humiliate Sir N....

Chris, I can put Sir N in a tight spot. I can make everybody around him desperate. I can do my best to make him desperate. I can have NPCs (deliberately or as a consequence of other actions) try to humiliate Sir N or put him in a position where he is likely to get humiliated. No problemo.

However, if I decide that Sir N *must* be humiliated, I am railroading. Why? Because that is the same as protecting a predetermined plot. Your advice is great, but if done right I can never be certain that Sir N is humiliated. The only way I could possibly ensure his humiliation is by making decisions for the player that rightly belongs to him, and him only.

Mike, this means that yes I agree that railroading is about power. It is about the GM not allowing the player to make decisions that are supposed to be his to make. (And, yes, I agree that the area of player influence varies immensely between different types of games, as you pointed out.)


- Scene Framing

I love scene framing. I even sort of invented something like scene framing in the mid nineties, though I didn't call it that. I did have trouble implementing it because some players saw it as a blatant attempt of railroading. They thought that I was trying to take away much of their power over the game without giving them anything back, and so vigorously opposed it.

"Hey, I wanna decide where to go next. You can't just put me in a scene like that... perhaps I don't want to go to the corral and fight."

"Okay. Sorry. So what do you want to do."

"Um... I wanna follow up the lead... I go to the corral."

I even wrote about it on my homepage, and a heavily edited and out of its original context version if this text even made it into the HeroQuest rulesbook. Go look for it in the Narrating chapter.* Of course, I realized only this spring that this scene framing thing that you were talking about here at the Forge was what I had try to do all along. And you people had been doing it for ages. And you even had an appropriate name for it. And now I *finally* realized why some players were so opposed to it.

And this is why I've told the players of this scenario from the start about scene framing, and how it gives them less power in the beginning, but gives them a lot more power than they are used to when it comes to deciding the outcome of a story. They got it and seem excited.

Thanks again for helping me out,

/Peter N

* Now I only wish that I had realized the connection between all of this a little earlier, and I would have urged the good people at Issaries to re-write it, to make it more about Scene Framing, and less about fooling around with time. However, the original text was aimed at potential players, and was a somewhat misguided attempt to ensure them that I weren't trying to steal their power.

[Valamir]

* Now I only wish that I had realized the connection between all of this a little earlier, and I would have urged the good people at Issaries to re-write it, to make it more about Scene Framing, and less about fooling around with time. However, the original text was aimed at potential players, and was a somewhat misguided attempt to ensure them that I weren't trying to steal their power.

Heh.  Well, that's what mailing lists, Forums, FAQs, and articles are for.  And ultimately in a few years a 2nd edition, or even just a revised section for a second printing.  :-)

[Valamir]

However, if I decide that Sir N *must* be humiliated, I am railroading. Why? Because that is the same as protecting a predetermined plot. Your advice is great, but if done right I can never be certain that Sir N is humiliated. The only way I could possibly ensure his humiliation is by making decisions for the player that rightly belongs to him, and him only.

Quite right.  You never want to go and tell the player how his character feels about all of the stuff happening to him.  The NPCs may react as if he's been humiliated but the player can react as he sees fit for the character.

EVEN and ESPECIALLY if that means overturning the entire theme you thought the game was heading towards (the humiliated man turning to the dark side as a last grasp for power and honor) and instead becoming one of nobility of spirit rising above the machinations of rivals (or some such).

That's exactly as you point out where the "greater power later" for the players comes from and you're quite right to draw the line there.

This is why narravist gaming has long been described as the premise asking a question which actual play then answers.

[Mike Holmes]

Again, it's all about player expectations, and their interests. In a game with personality mechanics, the player is acceeding (assuming he knows what he's getting into) that he will not always have control over the direction that things take mentally.

That's the basic principle again. Railroading is controlling what the player is interested in controlling. If he expects that you're going to to be controlling facts like his character's being humiliated, that's still fine. He just has to have an expectation of controlling something.

So, given that I think that you have established in your mind that you aren't going to control character thoughts much at all (it's interesting how often fear is an exception to this), and the players expect it, I think that it's going to work fine.

But there's a fine line between these things. Is putting a character in a situation where he could feel humiliated too much control? Well, if he has no other reasonable option, yes. If, as Ralph says, there are other options for the player to select, then the "compromising position" is fine to frame into.

OTOH, there's the idea of protagonism. That is, if the player won't possibly think that it's cool for the character to be humiliated, and there's an option B, then he'll take option B, and see it as railroading. You have only left him one reasonable outlet.

This is the hardest part about Bangs. Not only do you consider the character, but the player as well. If the player will only accept glory for his character, then you can't offer a Glory/Disgrace dichotomy. You have to instead offer something like Glory with Honor, or Glory by Any Means Possible. Find the areas of the character's personality that the player hasn't considered, and make that the bone of contention. Thus as the character makes decisions, he "develops" in the literary sense.

I'm sure there are other tricks like this.

Oh, and don't sweat it too much. Analysis paralysis can set in when you can't decide if a Bang is going to be too rairlroady or not. You really can't tell before play. Just get close, and move on to making another Bang just in case the first one doesn't produce the moment of decision that you thought it would. Expect some bangs to fizzle. But don't force them (I'm projecting here; I've made this mistake more than once in the past). No matter how much you think that it was a cool idea, the player's have to buy in as well. Like I said, if it fails, just move on.

And be prepared to come up with them on the fly. When you play this way, suddenly you'll realize in the middle of play that a cool opportunity has arisen for a bang that hadn't existed previously, or you hadn't seen. Go right for it. No need to stick to the pre-scripted Bangs, just go with the flow until it stops, and then fish another Bang out and get it flowing again.

Mike

[Bankuei]

Hi Peter,

Of course, anything could go anyway once play starts, that's the reason I don't get too detailed in actual Bangs, because you'll find yourself using maybe half of them, and half of those may be completely revised or used in ways you didn't expect at all.

What I'm driving at is that the scenario allows players to choose what point of entry they have in the conflict.  Player of Sir N has clearly drawn up family issues, protection, reputation, and rivalry as major themes, just by choosing that point of the R-Map.  You could say that the player has just handed you a kicker.

Now, you look at what they've handed you, and you figure out how to work with the player in providing the sort of conflict they seek.  It's not so much guaranteeing that Sir N suffers, its making sure that you have active NPCs,  pushing to make sure conflict happens.  You may very well find Sir N's player rising, meeting, and overcoming any challenge that you throw.  

So the two themes I would push in providing tension for Sir N are based around family(Josette) and the rivalry/reputation thing with Serge.  Between those two ideas, you should have a wealth of action.

Chris

[Mike Holmes]

* Now I only wish that I had realized the connection between all of this a little earlier, and I would have urged the good people at Issaries to re-write it, to make it more about Scene Framing, and less about fooling around with time. However, the original text was aimed at potential players, and was a somewhat misguided attempt to ensure them that I weren't trying to steal their power.

Just noticed this part.

I just read some of HQ for the first time last night. Dude, you have nothing to worry about. You have contributed to what is, in my humble opinion, quite possibly the best RPG to date. Gads, if you're worried about some single technique being left out, we're all going to have to redouble our efforts to keep up with you guys.

You know, I was actually secretly worried that you guys were going to mess up HW. Man was I wrong.

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

I just read some of HQ for the first time last night. Dude, you have nothing to worry about. You have contributed to what is, in my humble opinion, quite possibly the best RPG to date. Gads, if you're worried about some single technique being left out, we're all going to have to redouble our efforts to keep up with you guys.

You know, I was actually secretly worried that you guys were going to mess up HW. Man was I wrong.

1. I agree that HeroQuest is great. I love it. And I don't worry about some roleplaying technique being included or not. At least not from the point of view of the game being good or bad.

2. I wish that I deserve to be included in the "you guys" statement above, but I don't. I've had a little impact on how things were arranged in te Heroes chapter, a couple of paragraphs I once wrote made it to the Narrating chapter, and I made a bunch of sample heroes that had to be cut out. Thats it, basically. And that's why that insignificant little paragraph on page 187 annoys me: I wrote it. I didn't write all that wonderful great fantastic stuff, y'know.

3. The real hard working heroes behind HeroQuest are Steve Martin and Mark Galeotti, in my humble opinion. Well, and Robin D. Laws and Greg Stafford, obviously.

Cheers,

/Peter N

[Mike Holmes]

I think of the GTA and the whole staff on the project as a team with strong leads. What I'm saying is that you can be proud to have been included in such an august body.

But back to the subject. Where are those Bangs! I have some ideas...but I've been holding back to see what you come up with. :-)

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

I can hardly wait to hear your Bang ideas, Mike. :-)

Dacius
Relationships:
Assistant to Xavier
Father Rance's Illegitimate Son
In Love With Sister Josette

Envied by Older Brother (the knight of Biche)-- he desperately needs a name. I'll call him Luc unless the player objects. Note: The reason why Dacius' brother Luc envies him is because his freedom.

Put Aside by his Family (his family includes his decrepit non-biological father)
Member of the Congregation of Wells

Goals: Confront his biological father (Father Rance); Marry Josette.

Broken Hearts 1
Josette, devastated that Guilbert seems to ignore her now that they have slept together, turns to Dacius for advice ...  

Broken Hearts 2
Brier suggests a deal. If Dacius kidnaps Hugo and keeps him prisoner in 'the old cave' (or whatever) until the current situation is over, she promises to make sure that Josette turns her back on Guilbert forever.

What? Why? How? Brier tries to look out for Guilberts best interests. As a servant girl, she hears more than her master realizes. Recent late night chats between Hugo, Maslin, and Xavier, has made it clear that a very dangerous political conflict is about to happen. If Hugo is out of the way, in some safe place, he cannot get involved, hence not get hurt. How does she plan to turn Josette agains Guilbert? By sleeping with him. She has observed his behavor. When Guilbert gets drunk (which happens more and more frequently these days), he often ends up in bed with some young peasant girl; any girl basically. Maybe he has even hit on Brier when in an amorous mood. Now all Brier needs to do is to ensure that Josette catches them flagrante delicto, or at least finds out about the incident. That's her plan anyway.

Father Rance
Hm, well, I don't know yet. I can think of a zillion things that Father Rance can do, but none of it is Bang material, really. If Rance is afraid to be scandalized, he may try to threaten, bribe or otherwise make Dacius keep his mouth shut. But these are just actions and reactions, not Bangs. Suggestions are welcome.

Xavier
Xavier tells Dacius that he thinks Serge is about to make a coup d'état, and asks him to take out Luc. While this does not necessarily mean killing him, it does mean turning against his own brother.

New Info: Luc is one of Serge's allies. He is highly respected by the seargeants of Wells. Serge has put Luc in charge of half a dozen sergeants to "guard" Eustef. Xavier and Maslin are not comfortable with Serge controlling the well-being of the lord of the realm.

Comments?

/Peter N

[Peter Nordstrand]

Rickard

Before talking about Bangs for this guy ...

Basically Rickard doesn't really care what happens to anybody in Trymirwal. Which is somewhat annoying considering that I specifically told the players that their relationships should be meaningful in that way. The most annoying part is that I didn't realize what happened when it happened.

Basically, Rickard's relationships serve only two functions:

Trencavel: As an obstacle for him to reach his goal (i.e. become leader of the militia).
Lady Colette and Xavier: As tools for him to use in order to reach his goal.

The main question right now is: Shall I ask the player to change his character, or shall I go with what I've got?

I don't know. Perhaps a little of both will do the trick?

/Peter Nordstrand

[Mike Holmes]

Forget my bangs. They were a lot like yours, and many wouldn't be pertinent in the direction you're going. Let's just take a look....

Broken Hearts 1
Josette, devastated that Guilbert seems to ignore her now that they have slept together, turns to Dacius for advice ...  

Perfect. Perfect. Despite all my "A or B" examples you managed to come up with one that must have a ton of angles. How does he feel about her now? How does he feel about Guilbert? A plethora of ways the player can go here. Neato!

All sorts of spontaneous Bangs will present themselves (involving Assessor Ratier and others) depending on the outcome of this Bang.

Broken Hearts 2
Brier suggests a deal. If Dacius kidnaps Hugo and keeps him prisoner in 'the old cave' (or whatever) until the current situation is over, she promises to make sure that Josette turns her back on Guilbert forever.

Good. Some Bangs have the problem that they can be killed by earlier Bangs. This one has some of that threat, but even if the player rejects Josette in the first Bang, I think that this one's OK. Assuming that Brier doesn't know about the first Bang, it can still go off, and have a couple of ways it can go. I think.

What? Why? How? Brier tries to look out for Guilberts best interests. As a servant girl, she hears more than her master realizes. Recent late night chats between Hugo, Maslin, and Xavier, has made it clear that a very dangerous political conflict is about to happen. If Hugo is out of the way, in some safe place, he cannot get involved, hence not get hurt. How does she plan to turn Josette agains Guilbert? By sleeping with him. She has observed his behavor. When Guilbert gets drunk (which happens more and more frequently these days), he often ends up in bed with some young peasant girl; any girl basically. Maybe he has even hit on Brier when in an amorous mood. Now all Brier needs to do is to ensure that Josette catches them flagrante delicto, or at least finds out about the incident. That's her plan anyway.

Almost, but not quite. I wrote a ton of Bangs like this for Sorcerer and Space, and Ron quite rightly pointed out that they aren't happening to the character. That is, it's an intesting bit to the character, but it ought to happen to them. So, the Bang is (and this is quite a bit of GM Force here) that at some point when Dacius is with Josette, they both stumble across Brier in bed with Guilbert (Brier having set the whole thing up for the reasons you propose, but probably not expecting Dacius to be with her. For more kicks do it when more of the PCs are there.

Be prepared to play a lot of NPC reactions in that scene!

Father Rance
Hm, well, I don't know yet. I can think of a zillion things that Father Rance can do, but none of it is Bang material, really. If Rance is afraid to be scandalized, he may try to threaten, bribe or otherwise make Dacius keep his mouth shut. But these are just actions and reactions, not Bangs. Suggestions are welcome.

Do you know what would happen if Dacius was bribed? If not then that's your Bang. Often a Bang is just an NPC doing what that NPC needs to do, and involving the PC. Also, what can he bribe Dacius with that will make it a more interesting decision either way?

Xavier
Xavier tells Dacius that he thinks Serge is about to make a coup d'état, and asks him to take out Luc. While this does not necessarily mean killing him, it does mean turning against his own brother.

Perfect again. Make the player choose where his loyalties lay. I see all sorts of fallout on this one. Make sure that when these things become public that you get all the appropriate reactions from the other NPCs.

Heck one Bang that you have to have is "Eustef spontaneously recovers". So he can comment on things like this after the fact. That one can occur late so that it can really mix things up after all sorts of other things have happened.

I think you have Dacius pretty damn well covered. This is several sessions worth of material believe it or not. Because there's all the domino effects of each.


As for Rickard, don't alter the player's ideas at all. They made the character, they want him to be as they made him. But that doesn't mean you can't mix it up with the small amount of material available.

For example, while the player is thinking of Xavier and Collette as tools, it gets mighty annoying when a tool gets its own mind and starts doing it's own thing.

Let's take Collette. You want their relationship to be genuine? Fine, she's in love with Rickard's youth, and it keeps her young. But as it stands, you don't have any agenda for Collette herself. Why is she in the relationship with Eustef? I'm guessing he's her sugar-daddy. Basically, Eustef doesn't ship her off to a convent because of her attention. So what does Collette want? For Eustef to recover, of course. Otherwise she has little chance of remaining in her nice quarters at court when the new leader takes over.

So, how will she get that to occur. Well, see, unbeknownst to everyone, she's a Sorcerer with a link to chaos. And she knows this ritual. One small problem. It requires a living sacrifice (in fact this is the sort of ritual that'll work even if he dies, hehe). So, now she needs some help from her paramour in getting a body. So Rickard's player thinks that his character is determined? Let's see just how determined. Oh, and who do you think would be the appropriate sacrifice, BTW?

Like you suggested, a Bang involving somebody discovering their relationship is de rigeur. But they have to have their own agenda in order that they don't just go and spill the beans (few reactions available to that, and it can always happen later, anyhow). So, lesse, make it Raoul de Nesle who uses it to try and blackmail the couple into kidnapping Ettiene, so that Deliam will miss the big Dye market coming up, and he can steal the monopoly. Collette panicks and doesn't know what to do, leaving it to Rickard to decide whether to track down Raoul, or to do as he wishes. Hmmm. Ettiene could be a sacrifice...who knows?

For Trencavel Bangs, kill Rickard with kindness. Again, see how willing the player is willing to go in making his character a bad guy. Have Trencavel give Rickard "the sword of Comnos" which the school allows their best student to carry as a badge of honor. Have him give Rickard personal lessons. Have him invite him over to his house for dinner, and meet his wife and kids. Xavier even tells Rickard that he has to watch for treachery and protect his teacher's life. Then, when you've made a saint of the character, then have Serge come along and ask Rickard to kill him off and make it look like a training accident (too loyal to Eustef, you see, has to be eliminated). The reward will be Trencavel's position, of course, once Serge is in power.

Hmmm. Xavier want's Rickard to spar with Hugo. To give Hugo some pointers. Rickard is the better swordsman and should win handily. The question is, does he humiliate Hugo, to serve his own reputation, or does he make Hugo look good and gain a friend?

Oh, and BTW, make Xavier like a 10w2 in sword or something. Better than he's even reputed to be. So that if appropriate Xavier can put Rickard in his place. Sure Xavier likes the kid, but he's only a peasant, right? If that comes to pass, does Rickard take vengeance on the swordmaster, or learn a lesson from it?


For Sir N, the bang I came up with is that the simplest idea (often the best) is that Serge decides to press for Sir N's removal from court. Old Maslin noting this at this point "confesses" to the thefts himself to protect Sir N (and thereby Eustef). Does Sir N allow Maslin to sacrifice himself or leave in dishonor himself? BTW, this is just a rehash of that last line of the character intro. Basically that's what we call "playing before you play". The rehash makes it all new again in play.

But not to fret, even if he is exiled (or even if he's not for safety reasons), Guilbert takes Sir N in at his hunting lodge,  where it just so happens that there's lots of ale stored away for hunting parities. Guilbert offeres him a drink repeatedly, and drinks a lot himself (that's how he gets in trouble with the ladies, after all). Have a scene where the ale tuns speak to Sir N. It's a metaphor, but describe it directly. Have them seem like old friends that just want him to have one more drink. It sounds like your player wants to have this sort of scene where he decides between his drinking habit and regaining his honor. . Make sure it happens after he's been disgraced in some way.

A lot of his Bangs, of course, can just be Sir N learns what's going on with his daughter vis a vis Dacius' Bangs. Some Bangs are shared to an extent.

Gads do we have to go on? That'll do it for a lot of play. Remember that the PCs will be running into each other at times, and their goals and agendas will act to cause some action as well. Bangs can be involve PCs directly.

Bang: Alfan asks Dacius to look into the thefts and Sir N. He finds evidence (planted by Serge) that indicates yet again that Sir N was the culprit. Does he support the move to get rid of Sir N who seems to be against Eustef? Or does he hide the evidence trusting the man who was once Eustef's right hand man?

Just some thoughts. The thing is that you're closer to it and know if any of this sort of stuff is going to work. I'm sure you'll tweak it until it's right for your game.

Mike

[Peter Nordstrand]

Hi Mike,

Sorry for taking so long to reply.

I don't have much to add to your post. Your suggestions makes a lot of sense. Here's a brief list of possible Bangs. As you'll see I've decided to use most of your ideas.

SIR N
Lord Oleg de Boor offers power and money if only Sir N obstructs Guilbert's rise to power. He even offers military aid if Sir N wants to grab the power for himself.

Serge tries to exile Sir N, but Maslin interferes and confesses to the crime that Sir N (actually never) committed.

Assessor Ratier asks for Josettes hand.

Maslin asks Sir N to assassinate Serge.

Dacius
Josette asks for his advice. She has slept with Guilbert, but he just ignores her. "I love him so."

Brier wants Dacius to kidnap Hugo. In return she promises to ensure that Josette turns her back on Guilbert forever.

Dacius and Josette both stumble across Brier in bed with Guilbert. Include another PC if possible.

Father Rance tries to bribe Dacius to keep his mouth shut. (I need to come up with a tempting bribe...)

Xavier asks Dacius to ensure that his own brother can no longer be of any use to Serge.

Dacius finds evidence (planted by Serge) that indicates that Sir N was actually guilty of the theft he was accused of. (I must decide the nature of the evidence ... perhaps the priest of Stalos, Sir N's own congregation, has agreed to be a "frightened witness" to the thefts. Why? It is an opportunity to get that pathetic drunkard replaced with a proper knight.)

Rickard
Lady Colette asks Rickard to find her a suitable human sacrifice for the upcoming [insert name] ritual. (I like the idea of Colette as a Witch Bitch From Hell. Funny, I was planning to have her kill Rickard with kindness, but this is so much better. Now she becomes a reflection of him, which is nice. I'm not convinced that she is connected to Chaos, though. We'll see.)

Raoul de Nesle finds out about Rickard and Colette's relationship and tries to blackmail them into kidnapping Etienne

Trencavel gives Rickard the sword that his grandfather won fighting pagans in foreign lands. "You are like the son I never had."

Xavier tells Rickard to protect his teacher, and watch out for treachery.

Serge asks Rickard to kill Trencavel and make it look like an accident. (I don't like your reason for this, however. I think that Serge is loyal to Eustef. He is just not convinced that the old man will make it. Serge, I think, has the best intentions. He is only trying to save the fief from complete anarchy. Serge's reason for wanting to kill Trencavel is that the peasant is beginning to act too independently. Everybody knows that an independent militia is trouble.)

Other Comments

Xavier want's Rickard to spar with Hugo. To give Hugo some pointers. Rickard is the better swordsman and should win handily. The question is, does he humiliate Hugo, to serve his own reputation, or does he make Hugo look good and gain a friend?

I don't like this one, for several reasons. I might use a modified version, though, if it seems appropriate. We'll see.

Thanks again for being so helpful.

Cheers,

/Peter N

[Mike Holmes]

I wish other's had posted some thoughts. Ah, well..

Making Serge actually loyal, but potentially looking like a traitor is really good. This ought to be really cool. Which are you thinking works best to toss out there first? Or do you have some kick off events to follow on with whatever works intuitively?

Anyhow, when are you playing? I'm hoping to hear back on how it all went.

Mike