How to Design a Bad Game

[Zak Arntson]

Okay, as you can see from my Harlekin-Maus site, I design short games.  Usually with a ridiculous Premise (for a serious Premise, wait for my Chthonian redux).

So, a short while ago I issued a challenge to some friends of mine:  Give me an idea for an RPG and I'll write it.  I finished the simple write-up for Evolve and Saturday Morning Team Cartoons(http://www.livejournal.com/users/zaka/">http://www.livejournal.com/users/zaka/), so now I'm going to work on a suggestion from my brother:

How bout a double dragon rpg. But you gotta make it real close to how the game plays, i think electric dice roller would be appropriate... is it me or did elecric dice go out of style... too bad, i know i should have invested in that shit.

Next up, what do I think of first?

PS - I hope y'all don't mind me using the Forge to document the design process.  I thought it would be a fun exercise to go through it step-by-step with everyone, and give everyone a chance to tear me up.

_________________
Zak
http://mailto:zak@mimir.net">zak@mimir.net
http://zaknet.tripod.com/hmouse">Harlekin-Maus Games

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-10-19 18:57 ]

[Mike Holmes]

I just use Champions for such. Works like a charm, IMO. Narrativist Double Dragon? Well, if you say so...

On 2001-10-19 16:50, Zak Arntson wrote:
But you gotta make it real close to how the game plays, i think electric dice roller would be appropriate... is it me or did elecric dice go out of style.

Well, I'm not sure that electric rollers ever were in style. That said, there may be tons of "Dragon Bones" in a wharehouse somewhere, just waiting to be included in a Double Dragon game.

For an indie game, just include a spreadsheet that does the randomizing for you. Include some cool graphics. Might do the trick.

Mike

[Jason L Blair]

First off, you have to have one and two-player options. With differences, baby! Like combined attacks. Also -- Hello, Mook rules! Double Dragon is a game about kickin' ass and gettin' revenge, baby! (And cool tattoos! Woo-hoo!)

And let's not forget those cut-scenes. Is there anything better than badly translated dialogue scrolling under glorious 8-bit images? Oh, I think not.

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-10-22 10:02, Mike Holmes wrote:
I just use Champions for such. Works like a charm, IMO. Narrativist Double Dragon? Well, if you say so...

Nope, strictly Gamist Double Dragon.  Why did you get the impression that it was going to be Narrativist?

Well, I'm not sure that electric rollers ever were in style.

Not to worry, my brother's word isn't pure gold.  I just wanted to quote his entire proposal.  Electric Dice rolling goes right out the window.

On 2001-10-22 11:25, Key20Jason wrote:

First off, you have to have one and two-player options. With differences, baby! Like combined attacks. Also -- Hello, Mook rules! Double Dragon is a game about kickin' ass and gettin' revenge, baby! (And cool tattoos! Woo-hoo!)

And let's not forget those cut-scenes. Is there anything better than badly translated dialogue scrolling under glorious 8-bit images? Oh, I think not.

Ooooh!  Combined attacks!  My initial ideas are to have players compete for kills (as in, you can run in and steal kills by punching already weakened baddies).  Combined attacks would be great for big boss battles!  And thumping a million mooks at once.

And yes, I haven't forgot the cut-scenes ...



So ... on to the rough, rough design work

The Double Dragon my brother is talking about was a SEGA game that was TERRIBLE.  You walked around and punched badguys.  I think you could jump.  You constantly moved forward through the scenes, stopping only to punch more badguys.

So how can I translate this into an RPG?  Well, it's going to be a roleplaying game so I really ought to play with the video game's conventions, while allowing for some amount of improvisational theater-type stuff.

First off, I scribble down ideas for keeping the feel of the game:

 
• Constantly losing time?
   
• Can only move FORWARD
   
• Badguys should be clones of each other (i.e., the game recycles badguys like any good sidescroller)
   
• No real puzzles
   
• Almost all combat
   
• Non-combat parts should mimic the game, so any non-combat occurs as cut-scenes at major "plot" points (between levels, before a mini-boss, etc)
  

Since I want a competitive game that uses dice, I'm thinking of numbered attributes.  Speed, Strength, Throw?  Jump, Run, Smack?  Run, Smack, Special?  SIMPLER!!  So for now I've settled on Run and Smack.  This ties into video game character choice.  Many games have three characters: Fast & weak, slow & strong or average.

And thinking about vid mechanics ... the faster you press the buttons, the better off you are.  So what if every combat round you had a dice pool(s) that constantly regenerated?  Spending it would be like slamming your finger on the buttons ... you can tire out (i.e., using up your dice pool) and have to take a break.

If I use a simple dice pool system, mooks are pretty easy to handle.  Say you want a simple mook?  It's got one die.  Or two.  Heee!!

So a dice pool sounds like a good idea.  Player gets X dice and rolls them against baddies' Y dice.  The highest roller gets to gobble up dice.  The highest win die eats the highest lose die.  The next highest win die eats the next highest lose die, and so on.  Hmmm ... there's a mechanic to think about.  If I go with this, I have to keep my currency in check, since I'm thinking 1 score = 1 die (To keep the game fair, Run and Smack have to have equal influence in combat).

Back to the roleplaying aspect, what if the Players had tons of control over the game?  They ran the cut-scenes which set up the next Level (scene).  That way, everyone feels like they're contributing to the game.  Even if it doesn't make much sense ("Oh!  Ken!  That man is running into the Amusement Park!"), it's going to feel like a bad video game, which is the point.  And a good roll allows amazing effects.  Instead of gutting a baddie with the knife, why not trip him, then cut a rope to land a hanging net on him?)

Summary:
 A fast-paced combat-oriented competitive rpg designed after those terrible but fun side-scrolling fist-fight videogames.  Simple rules to move the game forward, fast-paced and simple mechanics.  Player control of cut-scenes and cinematic combat effects.

_________________
Zak
http://mailto:zak@mimir.net">zak@mimir.net
http://zaknet.tripod.com/hmouse">Harlekin-Maus Games

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-10-22 14:45 ]

[unodiablo]

Hi Zak,

Check out my '2 Page Action Movie RPG' in the Forge Library as well... Might give you a few ideas. It would work for this perfectly, you could pare the stats down to just Fight and Stunt, and then add some Gamist fighting elements that add damage for special moves, etc.

I think Fight & Stunt are more accurate stats, the characters all moved the same speed in that game. It really just boils down to "can I hurt him", and "can I dodge that big trash can". I remember hating the walking speed in that game!

I'm interested in seeing how this turns out! I love kung fu and action games.

Sean

BTW, I wrote a mini-game called 'Saturday Morning Heroes!' about those old team / hero cartoons too... You're not doing a Zombie Movie game, are you? :smile:

[ This Message was edited by: unodiablo on 2001-10-23 09:19 ]

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-10-23 09:17, unodiablo wrote:
Check out my '2 Page Action Movie RPG' in the Forge Library as well...

Just did.  It's a good game, but a little rules-heavy for this Double Dragon game, though (!)  I want to strip Double Dragon down as much as I can.

I think Fight & Stunt are more accurate stats, the characters all moved the same speed in that game. It really just boils down to "can I hurt him", and "can I dodge that big trash can". I remember hating the walking speed in that game!

Well, to follow the video game analog, Run = Skill with the Joystick (or Joypad), Smack = Skill with whacking the buttons.  Fight & Stunt in my game are the same thing.  There is no non-stunt attack!!

BTW, I wrote a mini-game called 'Saturday Morning Heroes!' about those old team / hero cartoons too... You're not doing a Zombie Movie game, are you?

No, but I am working on a truly Narrative WoD-type game.  And um, Hello Kitty roleplaying.  And a poker-based Wild West game.  Probably others that I can't remember.  They all flap around in my head until I get them down on paper.

[Zak Arntson]

So now that I've done some brainstorming, it's time to refine the game a little.  Here's how I imagine gameplay to work:
  Player-GM Improv Cutscene -> Fist Fight -> Player-GM Improv Cutscene -> Fist Fight ...

Simple, eh?  So, for the Cutscenes, I don't want to apply any hard mechanics.  Just suggestions on how to do things.  This is where the Players have the opportunity to twist the plot towards their own ends, saying things like, "Gee, Billy, those crooks must be after your Aunt's money!"  "Yeah, Kim, and I'll bet they are in that old abandoned warehouse!"

Now to the Fist-fighting.  I haven't fully decided on mechanics.  I DO know that I want:  Simple, repetitive baddies (maybe bosses are an exception) and a constantly increasing (but constantly spent) resource.  Characters have Run & Smack.  Baddies probably have just one "hardness" level (with the exception of bosses or something).  AND I know how I want the basic mechanic to work:

Both sides roll.  Highest roller then "eats" the loser's dice (but a die can only "eat" one die).  So if I roll a 6,3,1 and you roll a 5,4 ... I win.  My 6 eats your 5, but my 3 can't eat your 4.  So after the roll, I have all 3 dice (I won), but you've only got one left (your 5 was eaten).

Once you're down to zero dice, you're in trouble.  Baddies are dead.  Characters need another credit (i.e., Player is fumbling to put in a quarter) which means "out for so many rounds while other Players have the chance to score points."

Oh, and POINTS!  I forgot about that.  I'm thinking that you get 100 points for every die you eat.  And maybe bonus points for other actions (like there's 3 barrels in the corner, smashing them gives you 50 points apiece).  This could be accomplished by a simple grid.  Make a tick for every 50 points.



On to more gameplay.  I've got the dice resolution mechanic.  But now I need to do the rest of the mechanic.  I already know that I want increasing dice.  What better way than to get X dice per turn = X score!  So you if you have Run: 2, Smack: 4 you get two Run dice and 4 Smack dice each turn.

I like this.  Now I have to figure out how to balance out the Run and Smack.  I could simplify things by giving players only one score, but I don't want to do that.  I want to keep the futuristic concept introduced by later Double Dragon-style games of fast vs. slow and strong vs. light Players.

So, how do Run and Smack work?  That's my dilemma.  My ideas:

 
• You can spend dice how you want.  But at least ONE Run die per baddie (and your choice on Smack dice).  That way a big, slow hero must focus their attacks on one or two baddies.  But here, since a light, quick hero would have less Smack dice, they can't rain down the multiple attacks!!  Hmm ...
   
• You always have ONE die to hit a baddie with.   Smack dice are just bonuses!!  So as per the method above, the light, quick hero would be able to Smack all over the place, but quickly run out of bonus Smack dice.  This is a definite possibility (but there may be balance issues ... would quicker heroes score higher than slower heroes?)
   
• Run is spent meeting/avoiding baddies and wandering around the screen.  Maybe you can maneuver around baddies better using your Run?  So Run would be to avoid baddies, Smack would be to deal damage.  This may get too complicated.  Here I'm thinking that if you want to avoid a baddie you have to use your Run dice vs. their dice.  And if you succeed, you get to do anything mobile that turn.  You can grab weapons off the ground, maneuver for better position (i.e., accumulate more Smack dice), etc. etc.  I like this one a lot, but there's balance issues.
  

So what I'm leaning towards is:  Characters have two states: Toe-to-Toe and Running.  Toe-to-Toe Characters can Smack the baddies they're facing or Run from the fight (and spend next turn avoiding all combat).  Running Characters can freely enter the fight or interact with the environment.

I still need to make sure that I have a 1 Run = 1 Smack currency that is fair (so a Run 2 Smack 4 Character has the chance to nab as many points as a Run 4 Smack 2 Character).  I'm not quite sure how to do this yet.

Lastly, things like pipes and guns and stuff are easy with the current dice situation.  Just get some off-colored dice.  Are you carrying a pipe?  That's a PIPE die.  It is rolled with your Smack and can't be eaten, and is lost if ANY of your other dice are eaten.  Got a gun?  That's a one-time-only three GUN dice to your Smack.

[Zak Arntson]

So, frustrated with how this game was coming along, I took a break from it. In my opinion, this is a much-needed luxury for any writer. And it is a luxury, especially when you have deadlines!

Last night just before I scribbled my notes Superpets, I was thinking about this Double Dragon game (tentative names: Friday Night Fight, Street Brawl, Double First, Furious Dragon) and wrote down:

Fight
Smack

You get 2 dice/turn to place wherever

SMACK - Use to attack enemies
RUN - Use to evade enemies

And voila! Problem solved. What was the problem? I was frustrated with game balance issues between fast & weak vs. slow & strong PCs. What's my answer? Well, the whole idea of SMACK and RUN being somehow related to both Player and Character just sits funny.  Why would one score measure both a Player's ability to manipulate the game controls and their Character's ability in the game?

My solution, then: Remove Run and Smack scores.  These are now Run and Smack Pools.  Each round of play you gain so many dice, and divide them up between your Run and Smack Pool.  The number of dice you get per round is based on the difficulty level, perhaps.  (2 = hard, 3 = average, 4 = easy).  This gets rid of Character scores (going back to true Double Dragon roots where there's no PC differentiation save color) and gives Players a customizing control in-game.  "Do I put my dice in Smack? Or Run?  How many?"

Now I have a solid mechanic, when applied to all the players, should provide an equal playing field.  This is needed for any competitive game.  Now I'm about ready to write the thing up in http://www.livejournal.com/users/zaka">my LiveJournal or go straight to my Harlekin-Maus webpage.

Questions? Observations? I'm all ears ...