R-Maps

[Lisa Padol]

So, what is the difference between an R-Map and a (possibly partial) family tree?

-Lisa

[jburneko]

Family trees only include, "legitemet" members of a family: Marriages and children born of those marriages.  R-Maps include ALL ties of sex and family.  So affairs and children born of those affairs are listed as well.

Also an R-Map all by its lonesome isn't very useful.  It needs to be tied into some kind of backstory or situation that stress and threaten those ties.

Jesse

[Andrew Norris]

As I understand it, a Sorcerer relationship map just deals with how people feel about each other. The fact that Bob and Jim are brothers is noted in their character info, but it's probably more crucial to the session whether they're scheming to discredit each other to take lone possession of their father's inheritance, or that they're both having an affair with the same woman.

Family relationships usually involve some sort of emotional connection, obviously, but the point being that they don't prescribe behavior the way "love/hate" do.

[Malechi]

Reverse ..i  think..

Sorcerer R-Maps detail only Sex and Blood.  The Character info and background behind it add the details like "double-crosses X", or "hates Y"

Its the fact that the people in the R-Map are related that makes the details matter.  "Bob has a vendetta agains Jill and wishes to see her dead" is much more interesting and sticky if you know that Bob and Jill are Husband-Wife, Brother-Sister, Father-Daughter...

I think.. though I may be wrong..

Jason

[jburneko]

Jason has it right.  The R-Maps as discussed in Sorcerer's Soul are about diagraming relationships of sex and blood.  Who hates whom or works for whom, etc are all part of the backstory that goes in plain old fashioned GM notes.

Jesse

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Jason's correct, and Andrew, I'm afraid you have it backwards. "Who feels what about whom" maps are common in role-playing texts; relationship maps as described in The Sorcerer's Soul are not.

That reminds me: organizations are not represented by lines in a relationship map. The Mafia, or the Lion Clan, or the Brujah, or the Kergillians ... not represented by lines. Such associations might be scribbled onto a map as notes, or marked by asterisks or little stars or colors, but such things would be placed onto the map rather than used to construct it.

Best,
Ron

[Andrew Norris]

Thanks, folks, once again I had a certainty of something that was exactly opposite of the correct answer. I had the "organizational connections don't go on R-Maps" bit in my head, and conflated that with familiar relationships.

[Malechi]

To continue this a little...

At the present I have a Relationship Map that has three distinct little "islands".  These islands bring the total amount of characters in our story to around 15 I think and each island is separated according to geographical location.  Within each of these islands there's usually only one or two characters that are blood/sex matched.  Also, as I mentioned in an earlier thread regarding this, for the most the PCs aren't actually connected to any other character.  Is this a common structure for other peoples R-Maps? ie to have islands that aren't connected in the classic S&Soul sense(they may be in other ways however..loyalty, hatred, death etc)

cheers

Jason K.

[james_west]

For interest's sake, if the islands aren't connected, in what sense are they part of the same story?

- James

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

"Connected by a line on the relationship map" is one thing, "involved in one another's problems" is another, and "care about one another" is yet another.

Characters who are bound together ideologically or mystically, for instance, with no relationship-map ties, are almost automatically raising the question of whether such ideological/mystical ties are worth anything in the crunch. (Unless it's a predicated part of play that they are, period.)

I really hope no one is getting the idea that the lines on a relationship are the ones which matter to a story ...

... or worse, that player-characters are necessarily supposed to be included in the map. In fact, I suggest that for Sorcerer specifically, the main characters are perhaps somewhat better off not being parts of the map, at least not by default.

Best,
Ron

[Malechi]

To be a little clearer...

James: The story thus far has them moving between two towns.  Ostensibly there's no Blood-Sex connection between the two.  There's business between the islands, connections of loyalty and betrayal, emnity and what not.  The story thus far has the connections being tested.  We've come around to realise that we're working with a dual-premise campaign where "What is the price of freedom?" and "Just exactly who can you trust?" serve to drive our narrative.  (we're using the Midnight setting as inspiration/source).

Ron: After your comments regarding hooking players vs characters in another thread I think I understand the fact that players don't need to be intrinsic to the R-Map.  I'm getting the feeling that the characters, as protagonists act as a kind of stress test of those connections both on and off the map as they choose a side of the premise and act out accordingly.  Does this make sense?  

In the interests of simplicity/laziness I include some connections on my R-Maps that match up to the TROS SA Passion(such as Love, Hatred, Loyalty, Emnity).  However, do you think if I was to trim down the amount of people in the map to just those linked by the S&Soul (I don't own this book yet but I've ordered it) connections that the story would be more intense(we have five players atm)? Or are these sort of extended R-Maps, discrete in their on-map connections, common?

cheers

Jason K.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Jason (Malechi), you wrote,

I'm getting the feeling that the characters, as protagonists act as a kind of stress test of those connections both on and off the map as they choose a side of the premise and act out accordingly. Does this make sense?

That is exactly correct. When you get The Sorcerer's Soul, you'll see a lot of text that reinforces this point, especially in terms of the Humanity mechanic in Sorcerer.

In the interests of simplicity/laziness I include some connections on my R-Maps that match up to the TROS SA Passion(such as Love, Hatred, Loyalty, Emnity). However, do you think if I was to trim down the amount of people in the map to just those linked by the S&Soul ... connections that the story would be more intense(we have five players atm)? Or are these sort of extended R-Maps, discrete in their on-map connections, common?

This is sort of a weird question, because all we're talking about is a graphic representation in your notes. If "X" are the kin/sex relationships, and if "Y" are the Passions, then you've got a map with X + Y on it. If it's working for you, then that's fine and I don't have any particular reason to suggest changing it.

But ... if you wanted to, you could try drawing the kin/sex map only, as a means of focusing your own mind on those ties alone, and then looking at the separate list or diagram that involves Passions. Or put little dotted lines on this map to indicate the Passions, whatever.

The point is that the kin/sex lines are permanent. New ones can be added, but old ones never go away. Passions change, especially in TROS when their basic mechanics and designations can change very quickly. You can use the kin/sex map as an anchor or unchanging chassis on which to "drape" the shifting Passions.

I have found this to be an astoundingly effective prep device between sessions, and also that people who dump all the ties and feelings and associations into one diagram tend to lose the benefits it brings.

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

Okay, so R-map is a family tree, really, plain and simple, yes?

Let me play devil's advocate: I think the R-map is being overemphasized. It is a useful tool. It should be used. It is not an uber-tool and should not be treated as such.

-Lisa

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Lisa,

Depends on what you mean by "family tree." It means connections of kin and connections of sexual contact.

As for its use, I think a lot of people perceive a lot of weird things when they read a pretty simple explanation in The Sorcerer's Soul, or more accurately, when they see the words "relationship map." I spend more time disentangling those weird things than I ever would have imagined.

So yeah, I agree with you - it's a tool. A very powerful and useful tool, and ideally suited for Sorcerer play which emphasizes the Humanity score. But the be-all and end-all? Nope.

One last point, though ... to someone who's skilled with the tool, it may seem odd to spend all this time dealing with it. But you might be surprised at how many role-players out there not only don't see its uses, but immediately fly into a rage (or some kind of emotional reaction, it's hard to identify, frankly) upon hearing about it. I suggest being wary of becoming contemptuous of a tool simply because you're good at using it.

Best,
Ron

[Lisa Padol]

Point taken. I remember hearing that folks once left the room, highly offended, when hearing about the new Diceless Amber RPG. I don't get that either.

And yes, it's useful. The one I was discussing in a different thread, sure the PCs and players know all about it now, and it wasn't exactly a shocker of a revelation then, but it was exactly the correct tool.

I had a plot thread: Kid X is being used for Foul Magical Purposes (TM). Then I decided his father, who knew all about it, was the governor of Floriday. And then I decided he had an older brother, someone who'd already appeared as a minor NPC I wanted to flesh out anyway, and who, I'd already established, had come from a rich and/or powerful family.

-Lisa