BONES the RPG

[andy]

xiombarg

Thank you for your suggestion-- I had checked out Diceland, but I missed Sparks Dice. Printable paper dice make great economic and marketing sense, but for me, I just have to feel the ivory (well, OK, plastic) in my hand to feel like I'm rolling the bones. Still, no game will find acceptance if the economic entry is too high, a fact which I fear will doom the Conan D20 game.

Fortunately, the internet came to my rescue. There are a number of wholesalers that will sell a brick of 200 Koplow blank d6 for $20-30. Most gamers won't need that many. My customizing technique of choice is to use multi-colored fine point Sharpies ($7) on small Avery labels ($5 per thousand)--this way, you can reuse your dice.

Thank you for your tip. Would you like me to email you a copy of the rules.

Andy

[Lorenzo Rubbo-Ferraro]

Anyone think it difficult to make up symbols take a look at this site. It's an excellent resource of thousands of symbols and their meaning:

http://www.symbols.com

[taalyn]

Andy,

 I love the idea (I've been a big fan of Throwing Stones for ages), and I'd love to see your rules - or are the ones posted here it?

 Aidan

[andy]

Taalyn (and others)--

The current Bones rules PDF weighs in at 1Meg-- if you send me an email at bonesrpg@aol.com, I'll email you a copy.

Andy

[andy]

Another exchange with a perceptive lurker:

Couple more questions (and comments after):

How is the Hindrance die laid out, and when is it applied? Difficulty is dertermined by # of success, and dice are lost with damage, so I'm a bit curious how they are used (could not find any examples in the PDF).

Is there any limit to the amount of the same faces you can have on a single die (such as 5 Sword Faces) when creating your character (not including masteries)?

Do you have any campaign information available on the world you playtest the rules in?

I've seen a few games using similar mechanics. Have you ever seen the dice game Throwing Stones? There is also a similar game I've seen but I cannot remember the name that also reminds me a bit like Bones.There is also another game called Rolled Bones (similar names) which is currently being sold, but the mechanics are very different.

The hindrance die is a special die. A typical poison die would look something like this: X (green), X (green), blank, blank, blank, blank. Every time a character who is poisoned rolls his bones, if a green X (poison icon) comes up, the character suffers one damage and loses one of his character dice--the hindrance die is NOT considered a character die. This continues until the character is cured, dead, or until the GM has punished the poor fool enough and relents.

There is no limit on how many of a single icon a player can put on a single die. The modular die for "berserker" is: universal success, melee, melee, melee, melee, melee. The disincentive to building like this is a lack of ability in other skills--woe to the berserker who must climb a mountain....

I do have the Cold Iron campaign under development. I have posted the rough background on the Forge.

Throwing Stones was one of my inspirations, although their collectability angle left me cold.

As for lazy players, it takes all kinds. I think along the lines of the 20/80 Rule-- 20 percent of the people in any given circumstance do 80 percent of the work.

[andy]

I think that most FRPGs have three essential components-- A basic task resolution system, a combat system and a magic system. Although combat and magic are clearly tasks, most gamers (and all gamists) like their combat and magic systems to contain a few more crunchy bits.

The BONES magic system follows. I'd like feedback on how sound the mechanic appears to be, whether or not I should add to, delete from or substitute spells and any other creative input that comes to mind. Thus far, the Forge community has been very helpful.


Magic

   There are six basic realms of magic in Bones, each represented by a separate die icon. They are fire magic, water magic, earth magic, water magic, Alchemy and animism. Each realm of magic contains nine basic spells and/or rituals (collectively "spells"), three of the first magnitude, three of the second magnitude and three of the third magnitude. A spell caster who has access to spells of the second magnitude is said to be an "adept", and a spell caster who has access to spells of the third magnitude is said to be a master.

   Learning spells

All spells of the first magnitude in any given realm must be learned before spells of the second magnitude can be learned and all spells of the second magnitude must be learned before spells of the third magnitude can be learned. In addition to the basic realms, there are advanced realms which require mastery of at least two basic realms prior to learning.
A PC may learn one spell for each die icon he has for any given realm. For example, Gary has one earth magic icon, which means that he can learn one earth spell (which must be of the first magnitude). Gary has six fire magic icons, which means that he can learn six fire magic spells, all three first magnitude spells and all three second magnitude spells. Gary could not learn a third magnitude fire spell until he earns his next fire magic icon and he could not use one of his fire icons to learn an earth spells.

Spells and rituals

The primary difference between a spell and a ritual is duration and casting time. Generally, rituals last much longer that spells. Where casting time is concerned, spells are generally single combat turn (10 seconds)   while a ritual task typically takes ten minutes.

Alchemy

Rather than being similar to typical magic, alchemy is more akin to fantastic chemistry. Alchemy can only be worked in an equipped laboratory, and alchemical preparations cost (5 gold x magnitude). Alchemical rituals take 30 minutes per level of magnitude. A finished alchemical preparation is approximately 8 ounces and is usually kept in a specialized glass vial.

SPELLS

NAME   Type   Description
   Animism   
Calm Beast   Animism 1- Sp   Sooths a beast and prevents aggressive action—requires one success per 2d of beast

Beast mind   Animism 1- Sp   Gives basic thoughts of beast—requires one success per 3d of beast

Know Beast   Animism 1- Sp   Detects and identifies beasts within one mile  per success

Beast Speech   Animism 2-Sp   Allows speech with beasts for 5 minutes per success

Beast Messenger   Animism 2-R   Sends a beast on one non-combat errand—lasts one day per 2 successes

Spook Beast   Animism 2-Sp   Al beasts within sensory range of you flee—requires one success per 4d of beasts

Eye of the Beast   Animism 3- R   Allows you to use the senses of the designated beast for one hour per success while you remain in trance

Summon Beast   Animism 3- R   Summons 2d of beasts (per success) from up to one mile away (per success)—you have no control

Enslave Beast   Animism 3- Sp   The beast does what you tell it to—2d of beast(s) per success for 1 hour per success


   Alchemy   

Fire unguent   Alchemy 1-R   Creates one vial of sticky napalm that gives target of successful hit one flaming impairment die per two successes

Antiseptic   Alchemy 1-R   Creates one vial of topical medicine that adds one medical success to the total when treating wounds per two successes

Night eyes   Alchemy 1-R   Gives the recipient night vision for 2 hours per success

Healing Draught   Alchemy  2-R   Creates healing potion that cures one die of damage per three successes

Blade Burn   Alchemy  2-R   Successful hit with coated blade adds one avg poison impairment die per three successes

Quench   Alchemy  2-R   Extinguishes any flame on a successful hit, a 5 foot radius per success

True Acid   Alchemy 3-R   Destroys one non-magic item on a successful hit or does 1 damage per 2 successes as a missile weapon

Poison purge   Alchemy 3-R   Removes one poison die per success

Morpheus   Alchemy 3-R   When taken orally gives one strong (subdual) die per three successes


   Air Magic
   
Obedient Breeze   Air 1- Sp   Can use wind to lift 1 pound per success
Mist   Air 1- Sp   Obscuring mist in a 10 foot radius(per success)negates one combat/perception success (per  success)

Downwind   Air 1- Sp   Carries sounds and scents on the breeze—every 3 successes can be used as 1 perception success

Obscurement   Air 2- Sp   Makes the caster hazy—every 3 successes can be used as one stealth success

Wind   Air 2- Sp   Wind emanating from caster provides protection from missiles—every success provides one missile defense in a 5 foot radius

Lightning Bolt   Air 2- Sp   Can use successes as missile attack successes. Armor and shield do not add to defend

Fly   Air 3- R    Caster can fly at running speed for 1 hr per 2 successes

Summon Air Elemental   Air 3- R    Summons and binds an air elemental to one service per four successes

Hasten   Air 3- R   Doubles the movement speed of one recipient (per two successes) for one hour per success


   Fire Magic   

Create Light   Fire 1- Sp   Creates a heatless, smokeless flame that illuminates a 30 ft radius—lasts for 4 hrs per success

Blinding Flash   Fire 1- Sp   Blinding flash of light adds a blindness impairment die for one combat round per 3 successes

Create Flame   Fire 1- Sp   Creates a normal flame (1 candlepower per success) within line of sight

Fire Bolt   Fire 2- Sp   Can use successes as missile attack successes. If target is damaged, target gets one flaming impairment die.

Flame Blade   Fire 2- R   The next time the blade is drawn from its sheath, it will burst into flame and act as a flaming sword. Duration 24 hours (in sheath) or 2 combat rounds per success once unsheathed

Flame Tell   Fire 2- R   Caster can use every 2 successes as 1 sage success to identify and analyze objects passed through an open flame.

Fire Storm   Fire 3- Sp   Spell conjures a sheet of fire—each 2 successes counts as 1 missile attack success against everyone in a 10 foot radius

Flame Jump   Fire 3- R   Caster teleports between 2 open flames—up to 1 mile per 2 successes

Summon Fire Elemental   Fire 3- R   Summons and binds a fire elemental to one service per four successes


   Earth Magic
   
Clay Touch   Earth 1- Sp   Caster can mold earth or stone like soft clay—1 cubic foot per 2 successes

Mending   Earth 1- R   Fixes a broken object made from clay, stone, metal or glass--1 cubic foot per 2 successes

Earth Friend   Earth 1- Sp   Can use each success as a maneuver success on earth, stone, metal or glass surfaces

Warding   Earth 2- Sp   Caster can use each success as a defense success

Stone Tell   Earth 2- R   Caster can ask one question (per 2 successes) of natural or worked stone

Harden   Earth 2- R   Adds one defense face to metal armor or one attack face to metal melee weapon for one hour per 3 successes

Summon Earth Elemental   Earth 3- R   Summons and binds an earth elemental to one service per four successes

Passage   Earth 3- R   Opens a 5 ft wide and 10 ft long passage through stone or earth per 3 successes

Rock to Mud   Earth 3- R   Turns a 10 foot cube of earth or a 2 foot cube of stone to mud per 3 successes



   Water Magic
   
Create Water   Water 1-Sp   Creates one gallon of water per 2 successes—no range

Minor Healing   Water 1-Sp   Cures one damage per 3 successes

Mist   Water 1-Sp   Obscuring mist in a 10 foot radius(per success)negates one combat/perception success (per  success)

Detoxify   Water 2-R   Cures 1d of poison per 3 successes

Walk on Water   Water 2-Sp   Allows the recipient to walk on water for 10 minutes per 2 successes

Ice Dart   Water 2-Sp   Can use successes as  missile attack

Summon Water Elemental   Water 3- R   Summons and binds a water elemental to one service per four successes

Water Breathe   Water 3- R   The recipient can breathe water for 1 hr per 3 successes

Weather Control   Water 3- R   Caster can change the weather 1 factor per 3 successes in a 1 mile radius per 4 successes

Those are the basics for now. Thanks for your input.

Andy

[taalyn]

heya Andy,

 Well, I've looked it over and thought a bunch, and here are my comments. I lost your specific questions to me, so if I don't hit them, ask again.

Skills

 I have two opinions about your skill list. Either it should be pared down some (less is good IMO) - perhaps limit the magic skills some other way, or drop skills like sailor and riding and replace them with transport. My own game only has 7 "skills", for example. Or, it should be expanded and a little more specific.
 The reason I say this is that the scope of the skills varies considerably. Some skills (like Melee or Craft) are fairly broad, but then you get very narrow on skills like Fire magic. I think there should be some similarity of scope throughout, for elegance's sake if nothing else.

Universal symbols

 You have separate icons for poison and flaming - why? Couldn't these more easily be combined into one symbol - Damage, or Pain, or Bleeding, or something like that? Or go the other route, and increase the detail - again, this is a scope issue for me. Increasing the icons, you could add bleeding, pain, broken limb, concussion, etc. for fun details for combat, or even go with more generic icons so that they would apply in multiple situations: Confusion (combat: fumble, social: wrong person or wrong words), Pain (combat: bleeding, social: fear), Encumbrance (combat: heavy armor and stuff, social: bad reactions from the peasants), Poison (combat: well, um, poison, of course, social: hidden enemies), and so on. All kinds of interesting detail could come out of these hindering dice.

Hybrid tasks

 These make no sense to me. I can't imagine any instance where a single task would be a hybrid. Your example (jumping out the window to land on the horse) sounds like two separate tasks to me - maneuver to land on the horse, riding to not spook it.
 I also think they're a little too complicated (too much algebra! =) for the sleek and simple system that I see here.

Equipment

 Need more examples. Some ideas and guidelines on how to build an item die would be immensely useful too. How many Stealth icons should there be on Boots of Stealth, and what are the implications? You offer 3 on the die in the example, which effectively means they only work half the time. That doesn't seem right to me.
 I wonder if instead of item dice, you simply have an item icon, or only allow items to be used successfully with universal successes and an "item use" skill, or somesuch.

Hindering dice

 These should be some other color (red), so they're easily identified when in a player's pool.
 When do hindering dice appear, especially the non-poison-or-flaming varieties? I have ideas for them I'll get to in a sec. Generally, these seem to influential, and it seems as though they would be way to powerful an effect. I wonder if there are other ways to handle these issues (I think there are, of course...).

Skill Mastery

 Scope! =) More possible icons, or be more generic. An idea - a single mastery icon for any skill (the skill's icon circled?), which will have multiple possible effects. The player has to choose which one of those effects to apply. If you adjust the skill scopes, I think scope here might be automatically fixed, even if you keep three masteries per skill.

On and Off Stage

 I really don't like these terms. It makes the game seem like a narrativist diceless freeform system. I don't mind that sort of system, but it's not what you're doing here. I'd go with simpy calling OffStage "Longterm tasks", since OnStage tasks are simply "tasks".
  You also need more examples of OffStage uses - as presented, it doesn't seem like there is much I can do with it except make money. What about seduction, spying, exploring, researching, etc? How do successes work for those?

Improvement

 Unless you intend for characters to advance fairly quickly, I would double the costs you provided for advancement. They seem a little fast to me. But I could be wrong.

Combat damage

 How is the lost die chosen? It will make a huge difference if my 4-melee die is lost vs. my 4-stealth die.
 One die lost seems like an awfully high penalty, especially if the player hasn't arranged his icons well (I would never put all my fire magic icons on one die, for example, but spread them out so I can be sure to have the chance for multiple successes). An idea - every point of damage is a hindrance die. After you've accumulated 2 or 3 hindrance dice, they are lost, and you lose a character die.
 Of course, if you want combat very deadly, you've got it pegged. But most fantasy isn't quite that deadly, I think.

Magic

 Personally, I don't like the magic system. But then, I'm not a big fan of limited choices. If I got to remake the system howver I'd like, here's what I'd do.
 Come up with effect icons. Say Damage, Healing, Enchanting, and so on. Perhaps something on the order of the "schools" of magic common in numerous different games. Then the players can create spell dice, the number of dice based on how advanced they are. They'd roll the dice, and try to get what they want to happen with the effects they roll. Example:

 Amanda the Sorceress is accosted by Bob the Thug in an alley. He threatens to kill her if she doesn't hand over her moolah. being a powerful sorceress, and not one to take lip from some uncouth punk in the street, she decides to cast a spall and take him out. She has 3 spell dice, and rolls Damage, Movement, and Plants. The player decides that Amanda is moving the wood of the nearby fence to poke Bob in the back (for 1 point/hindrance die because of the one Damage effect), and convince him that her friends are right behind him until she can talk her way out of this, cast another spell, or otherwise escape.

Overall

 I like. I very very like. I started looking at bricks of dice already, that's how much I like. =)

 I think you need to offer some guidelines on how to build dice, and how to place icons, particularly for item, beast, and NPC dice. What the implications are if the NPC die has 3 melees on it instead of 1, and that sort of thing. You also need to clarify whether I can put my icons anywhere, or are limited in how they can be placed. If all my icons of a particular type have to appear on one die, then you definitely need to change the 1 die lost for damage thing. If not, then I'd make sure your examples are a little more spread around.

 Hope this helped, and I look forward to your comments and other questions!

Aidan

[andy]

Great insights Aidan. To specifically look at some of these issues:

Skills-- I think that a game needs a decent number of skills for character distinctions. Still, your point is valid, esp. w/respect to magic (which I address more below). Any other opinions on this issue?

Universal Symbols--I stick with three universal hindrance symbols to keep complexity (and the number of different dice you need) to a relative minimum. I separate flaming and poison because each hindrance is eliminated in a different fashion and I want to make it easy to remember if you're on fire or just poisoned. More would be cool, but probably take too many dice.

Hybrid tasks-- I think that you're right, and you're not alone in this comment. Bones 1.1 will omit this rule.

Equipment-- I do need some better equipment examples-- again, B1.1 will address this issue.

Hindering Dice-- I personally use red dice, but I don't want to force all players to buy multi-colored dice. Poison dice appear when you injest poison or when a critter poisons you (see the Bestiary). Flaming dice appear when someone sets you alight (with a spell or alchemical preparation, for example).

Skill Mastery-- Let me think about this one....

On/Off Stage-- As a "gamist" (if you recognize such distinctions, which I really don't), your objection to the term is well taken. I'll try to think of something catchier. V1.1 will have more examples--great suggestion.

Improvement-- I like fast improvement in the beginning, slowing later. I'll have to test this system a little more.

Combat damage-- The player picks the die lost. My group of min-maxers would follow the course that you suggest and spread their icons-- better two dice with one melee symbol each that one die with two symbols. I do want sort of deadly, but not too deadly. I hope that allowing the player to assign his dice in response to the NPC's assignment will be enough of an advantage to prevent routine bloodbaths, but I could be wrong....

Magic-- I don't really like the magic system either, but it was the best that I could come up with. Your suggestion is intriguing--I'll give it a write-through and see what it looks like.

Your post was great. Thank you for the help.

Andy

[Paul Czege]

Hey Andy,

First off, if you're thinking you still have all kinds of work to do before you can start playtesting, you're wrong. The rules I'm looking at are very much solid enough for playtesting right now. And I think that's where you should be...playtesting yourself, and rounding up independent groups of playtesters. Don't be put off from this by all the questions and feedback coming up from me in the main part of this post. I only have a lot to say because I think Bones is going to be really great.

So, feedback, questions, and suggestions, in no particular order:[list=1][*]The name...Bones. It's decently evocative. But from the mechanics it's obvious you're focused on fast Gamism, player risk-taking, and uncertainty. I think a better title would convey that dynamic...would tell the potential customer that this is a roleplaying game about "http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/">step on up." What do you think of The Flesh and the Bones?

[*]I think you need a term that means "number of symbols," that is, "number of symbols appropriate to the current task." It's hard to parse "number of symbols" when it's seen in a formula. The reader wonders, "number of what kind of symbols?" I don't have any good suggestions though. The best I could come up with was "density." So a player is limited to 2 x Density worth of universal successes when attempting a Restricted Action. Yeah, "density" sucks, but you get the idea.

[*]Regarding the symbols, if you weren't already thinking along these lines, I strongly suggest that you keep them very simple. I know it will be hard to come up with simple, iconic representations for so many things. But I think it's important. Your mechanics are going to require the creation of dice by all participants during actual play. In my experience, the simplest quick and fun way to make dice is to draw with a Sharpie on the sides of inexpensive wooden cubes sold at craft stores. And if your official Boat icon looks like a trireme, it's going to be a big deterrent to some folks. "My dice look like shit :("

The Scale icon is going to be a challenge.

Definitely check out that link to symbols.com. I'm remembering a standard icon for Alchemy that isn't a circle. It's the infinity symbol, isn't it?

[*]Regarding the optional Skills and Familiarity rules...I think they're very much counter to the kind of fast play and variety you're wanting to promote. Players are going use their strong skills over and over until you're sick to death of the lack of variation in their actions. I think you should ditch them. At the very least, they shouldn't be a penalty. If you don't ditch them, consider instead of a penalty some kind of bonus that isn't about effectiveness at task resolution.

[*]The task resolution system is arguably the core of Bones, and so I feel compelled to really push and pull at it with my feedback. Really, there's nothing wrong with what you have. But I think it could be tighter, and faster, and more conscious and facilitative of the GM's delivery of adversity.

First off, have you seen http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=2695">Mike's Standard Rant #5: The Myth of Opposed Rolls? If it were any other game I'd say to just ditch one or the other of your resolution systems, target numbers or opposed rolls, and make everything work the same. Earlier in this thread Mike suggested going with all target numbers. And I'm sure you barely considered it. You're emotionally invested in the play dynamic of the opposed dice throwdown. And don't think that's a bad thing. I think the opposed dice combat mechanics sound exciting. But I'm going to suggest something else entirely. William Faulkner's oft-quoted advice to writers is "kill your darlings"...the idea being that what you create will be less than excellent if you can't bring yourself to be ruthless and objective about it as a whole. You need to be prepared to excise any passage of text, or by extension, any game mechanic. Bluntly, this is often exceedingly difficult for game designers who are making a game to deliver the player experience they've always wanted. They mentally occupy a space within the game system, and struggle to get objective.

So I'm going to tell you how I'd re-architect the Bones task resolution system to be facilitative of myself as a GM. I've long had an interest in dice fabrication games. And here if you don't know, the closet comes open. I designed http://www.halfmeme.com/WFDrules.html">my own a few years ago. I'd recently played James V. West's game, http://www.randomordercreations.com/thepool.html">The Pool, and had a blast. It totally changed the way I thought about how a GM could be best positioned by a game's mechanics for bringing intensity to the events of play. I liked how in it, the player's dice were not compared to anything the GM did after they were rolled, not a dice pool, not a target number. The interpreting of the dice was fixed and objective. The giving of the one-to-three dice prior to the dice roll had a great tone to it in my mind, eliminating the GM as opponent/obstacle within the game all the way down at the root of the conflict resolution mechanics.

It was a great GMing experience that let me focus my energy during play on offering compelling adversity, and not on trying to build that somehow, incrementally, by tweaking at the challenge level of individual tasks. Bones currently offers the GM a lot of opportunity to tweak the challenge level of individual tasks...setting target numbers, determining the size of an opposed pool and how many sides of defend or melee appear on each opposing die. It may seem improbable, but challenges will seem much more intense to players if you remove the GM from the role of scaling and adjudicating the opposition as much as possible. Maybe you'll need to run The Pool in order to understand.

But enough, here's what I'd do: I'd ditch opposed pools and target numbers. I'd provide guidance to the prospective GM in the game text on creating a standard set of adversity dice. You already have a precedent for this with the concept of hindering dice. I'm just suggesting you extend it. Check out the text on the GM's dice in http://www.halfmeme.com/WFDrules.html">The World, the Flesh, and the Devil for an idea of what I'm talking about. So when a player states an intended action, the GM gives him a handful of adversity to roll along with his character dice. And one success over the adversity is all it takes. It's a smoking fast throw-em-and-read-em resolution system. You gotta play The Pool.

[*]Hybrid tasks. No dividing. Yuk. You need to be able to throw the bones and see the result. Like Aidan suggests, I'm not sure you need hybrid tasks, but if you think you do then maybe just require the rolled successes to include at least one icon from each.

[*]Have you considered a term for where a player puts dice that get removed, but that will eventually return to the character? The text always says "removal of a die," which seems jarringly permanent. How about "Injury Pool"?

[*]What's up with all the movement rates and spell radiuses and ranges and volumes of cubic matter and lengths of combat rounds in seconds and how many candlepowers the flames are and whatnot? Is the game intended to be played tactically with miniatures? If so, the text should make that clear. And yeah, I think you need to take a stand on this. "Use miniatures if you want" is exactly the same wishy-washy crap as "if you don't like the rules, remember that it's your game and you can change them." Bluntly, these kinds of things do not help you sell more games. You don't avoid amputating part of your potential audience with game text that's equivocal about what the game is. You'll provoke lots more actual play and enthusiasm with authoritative text. The game needs to read like it knows what it is.

[*]The "no more than one mastery icon on any given die" restriction is interesting. What purpose does it have? Is it preventing something undesirable that isn't obvious to me?

[*]Instead of "artesian" you want "artisan," right?

[*]I love how encumbrance works. It occasionally cancels certain successes. Beautiful. I love how endurance works, cancelling encumbrances.

You generate so much information about a specific task's resolution from just one roll. It's great. But maybe it's another argument for eliminating the opposed rolls. They could very well be information overload, and hard to mentally reconcile when considered alongside the player's roll.

[*]So am I right that a magic user can wear whatever armor he wants, simply assuming whatever risk it entails for the cancellation of spell successes? If so, I like it.

[*]If I'm understanding correctly, I love how the special effects from skill masteries work. Say I'm rolling in combat and my Animal Friend mastery icon comes up. At that point I can choose to count it as a successful command to an animal companion? It's not that I'm stating the intent of commanding my companion and trying to roll the Outdoorsman mastery icon...the dice are offering me the command option when I'm rolling for something else? It's gorgeous. Up until that point, I presume the GM has been controlling the companion. And the Boss mastery works the same way. I love the idea of the GM handling a lackey as playing defensive in combat until I turn up the icon that lets me tell him what to do. I love that the dice mechanics produce stuff for the player to have to make decisions about, rather than just determining success/failure of what the player had intended to accomplish. I'd love to see some weapon masteries that allow for the translation of attack and defend successes to another player's roll...putting the rolling player in the position of having to decide how to use them when they turn up.

[*]If I roll my Horseman mastery icon I can translate successes to a mount's roll. Is this just the successes represented by the mastery icon itself, or any successes I rolled?

[*]Another thing I love about the masteries...they aren't ranked in any way. So as a player, once I've achieved mastery level I get to choose from among several mastery options what I want to add to my dice. I've always hated the White Wolf thing where you have to buy levels in shit you aren't the least bit interested in before you can get what you want.

[*]In the text on the Night Vision mastery you mention cancelling "cover from darkness." How does cover from darkness work?

[*]I also quite like the On Stage/Off Stage stuff. So as a player I could say, "I wage war for the peninsula," and then I'd roll for it. It's nice to see strategy in the game in a way that doesn't require it to be produced incrementally from tactical victories. It makes the game feel big.

[*]You write, "every asset acquired in play must be maintained (an Off Stage action) or be lost." So what's an asset, and how do are they acquired? If I use my Disarm mastery duelling with Lord Grompt, and snag his magic sword, is that an asset that I have to maintain? What does an Off Stage action maintaining a magic sword asset look like? Are friendships assets? If I state the Off Stage intent of making friends with Lady Cleve, and I win the roll, then that friendship is an asset? And because I only get three Off Stage actions, that means I can only maintain three assets? If so, why would I ever maintain a friendship asset that has no mechanical impact on play over maintaing my magic sword asset?

[*]Love the "survive death" usage for spiff.

[*]Interesting to see that spiffs "cannot change any major plot elements" and that the "GM can veto any use of spiffs." You realize these say the same thing?

That isn't to say that I think you should take either of them out as being redundant. It's just from reading the spiff mechanics I can tell you're interested in a play dynamic where players respect the GM's setting and antagonists, and that you're using the spiff mechanics to set that expectation. A player gets spiff for "making the GM laugh," but not for making the other players laugh...that is, you don't want Monty Python jokes. You don't want the GM to be an adversary to the players at the social level. You want the characters to have in-game adversaries, but for the players to respect the GM for the delivery of the antagonism that makes their actions meaningful. Have I suggested yet that you could eliminate the "GM as opponent" social dynamic by having the GM not roll for the opponents :)

[*]You answered Aiden above that when a character takes damage that it's the player who decides which dice is lost. I presume this extends to healing as well, the player decides which dice to get back first?

[*]You give free successes for cover. Why not give a cover die to any character with cover? Ditch the size thing for cover.

[*]Love the weapons and armor dice. They're very nicely balanced, with advantages to almost all of them, so it's not like the choice of weapon is obvious the way it is in other games. It does look like the spear is always better than the dagger, and the longbow is always better than the shortbow.

Am I correct in that a character who rolls a missile success on his spear or javelin is presented with the decision of using that success toward the roll, and losing the weapon, or of not using the success and keeping the weapon for continued combat? If so, it's just like the way rolling skill masteries puts the player in the position of making decisions, and I like it.

[*]When a character earns a new icon, can they put it onto a blank side of an armor or weapon die?

[*]You typed "water magic" twice in the text on magic. You need to replace one with "air magic."

[*]You write that alchemical preparations cost "5 x magnitude." What's magnitude?

[*]Summon Beast produces "2d of beasts (per success)." Since when are you using standard d6s? It totally violates the customized dice aesthetic of the rest of the game. And who determines what kind of beasts show up?

[*]The Morpheus alchemical potion "gives one strong (subdual) die per three successes." Is this die added to the pool of whoever drank it? So what's happening here is the character gets burly and wields increased ability to subdue opponents?

[*]Obedient Breeze seems pretty wimpy. So does Downwind. I have to roll three successes for one Perception success? So if I only have two Air Magic icons, and then because spellcasting is a Universal action I'm limited to two total successes, I can never get a single Perception success from casting Downwind? Lots of spells are underwhelming this way. If I only have one Alchemy icon, I can make a Fire Unguent but it will never be successful. What happens if only roll three successes summoning an elemental? He just stands there, or he doesn't show up at all?

In general, I think the spells are fun. I just think you have an issue from allowing characters to start putting icons into something where you require a minimum number of successes for that investment to even do anything.

[*]What is a "weather factor"?

[*]Okay, so despite my relentless advocacy of players rolling "adversity dice" instead of the GM rolling for the opposition, I have to admit that I like the beasts and how they work. In fact, the pouncer/predator/behemoth/etc. dice are very close to how I envision the "adversity dice." I like the toolkit approach. In fact, I think it's going to be fundamental to the popularity of your game. That is, I can totally appreciate the fetishism of dice fabrication...but that appreciation is fondly remembering when I was younger and had the time to paint miniatures and whatnot, and wishing I still had that kind of time. But reality is that adults aren't going to invest themselves in a game that requires them making up a couple of dozen dice before each play session. They might buy it, out of their own fond remembrances of younger days. But they won't play it. How many thirtysomethings do you know who've painted even a dozen of the figures in their Warhammer army? You can't play Bones with unfabricated dice. Normal adults have limited time. They want to play games, not fabricate game ephemera. Unless you're targeting only asocial grognards, I think you need to clearly limit the amount of dice fabrication required of the GM. You need to make it a start-up cost of time invested. I'm thinking all you can reasonably expect for up-front fabrication is a standard set of no more than twenty GM's dice that are used in various combinations for all opposition.

And you have to get some social stuff into that set in addition to the combat stuff.

Yikes.[/list:o]So that's a lot of feedback. Don't be deterred. It's a cool freakin' game. I wouldn't have written maybe the longest post I've ever written if it wasn't.

Paul

[Umberhulk]

You could use blank sticker sheets and create pdfs of the symbols that are inkjet printable for easy dice assembly.  X-Bugs uses stickers for its custom dice and they seem to work pretty well.

[andy]

I am on vacation this week, so it will take me longer to respond to posts.

Great post Paul--extremely helpful. I am still digesting it.

Andy

[andy]

Does anyone have an idea what software would work for printing on tiny stickers? Unfortunately, the Avery labels that I use aren't on 8x11 sheets.

Thanks.

Andy

[taalyn]

That shouldn't be an issue. Just set your page to match the dimensions of the Avery labels (or enter the Avery label code) and you should be okay.

Check out the Avery website too. They may have independent software which can do the same thing (though Word should do it fine).

Finally, give up half sheets. Simply arrange your icons and print them onto full sheet label paper. You'll have to cut each out separately, but...

Let me know what Avery code you've got, and I can see if I can get it to work.

Aidan

[MPOSullivan]

okay, i have an idea to contribute about the NPCs, if you do keep up the idea of opposed rolling, with the GM using dice.  for monsters, or bad guys or whatever, simply have a couple of charts for each, all mapping out what would be on their dice.  like this:

THUG

Dice One
1- universal
2- melee
3- melee
4- melee
5- defense
6- defense

With this, the dice faces correspond to the numbers on a standard D6.  then, all you need to have as the GM is a couple of un-customized D6.  so, whenever you need to roll for your NPCs, you just grab a couple of D6 and roll 'em and check your charts for the NPC.  

this may also be helpful for players that don't have access to a printer to make their own dice, or to help players track their PCs experience and evolution.  also, it will halp with lost dice.  if others here are anything like me, then i know you're going to wind up losing your favourite character dice.

(Also, listen to Paul.  He's damned right on all of the stuff he brought up.)

[andy]

Unfortunately, I have had altogether too much real work come up on this vacation to have the time to devote to Paul's good advice--now I have had a chance to chew on it, crunchy bits and all:

1. I like just Bones. I think that there are more evocative and descriptive titles, but in the end most RPGs end up being referred to by shorthand names anyway. I'd rather just start there. Besides, I'm also a craps player....

2. I agree. How about "Icon Count" for number of symbols?

3. Again, I agree. Being a terrible artist, the simpler the better. I also want people to be able to read their Bones without needing reference material.

4. I like skill mastery because it helps distinguish between characters as they get more powerful. I agree w/respect to Familiarity--it's out.

5. I was originally going to reject this suggestion out of hand (opposed roles ARE one of my "darlings"). However, I read Paul's own innovative customizable dice game, reviewed some other posts on this august Board and searched my already-mortgaged soul-- and I'm still chewing on this one. I've got enough BA Felton in me to like rolling against my players, and the game should be fun for the GM too.

I've got to go-- I'm still digesting, but now I need a nap.

Andy