IntraGalactic League of Sims

[Walt Freitag]

Now, now. Let's keep this as friendly and understanding as possible. Communication across disciplines can be very tricky. Some frustration is inevitable, but let's assume that all sides are trying their best.

Stacey, most of the questions raised here could be answered quite easily, I believe, if you could point us to any Web links where anyone has posted a log or transcript of a session of simming that you would consider representative of your craft. I looked for a while on your site and on the sites of some of your member groups, and I didn't find one, but if simming sessions are conducted by IRC chat or e-mail then surely such logs must exist.

If you're curious in return, here's a link to a thread here on the forge of a session of a role playing game that's representative of the type of gaming we discuss at the Forge: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9442. The game was played face to face, so there is no verbatim transcript. What's posted in a summary of what happened in the imagined story during the course of play. There were four players, one playing each of the "minons" described, and one playing the role of the Master. Each "scene" was narrated in turn by one or more of the players. The players were following fairly precise rules (which unfortunately are not specified in the account) governing what each scene would be about, and they sometimes used dice to determine how a scene would end or what effect a character's action would have next. Within the framework required by the rules and by the die rolls, the players improvised all the details as they went. The game system is called "My Life with Master" by Paul Czege, and the game session was conducted the same inquisitive gentleman who posted the previous post (I assume he played the Master).

The other main area of curiosity is the nature of the needs that your organization fulfills. I gather that all that about the judges and legislators are your group's equivalent of bylaws. As such, they're not bizarre at all; all membership organizations have them. (The Forge, by the way, is not a memebership organization and has no such bylaws; you can read about how the Forge works in the "Ettiquette at the Forge" sticky thread, fifth from the top in this Site Discussion forum.) But it's a little unusual to have the main pages of your site be all about that, because while bylaws tell how a group makes decisions, resolves disputes, and conducts its business, what most visitors to your site are more likely to want to know is what that business is -- that is, what the group actually does as a group, what services it provides, what privileges its members enjoy, how the members use the group to help each other out. We'd like to know more about that.

Best regards,

Walt

[xiombarg]

I'd also like to say that as President, with all that governmental structure, perhaps Stacey could delegate someone to answer our questions if she doesn't have time to answer them herself.

[Stacey Lucht]

I'd also like to say that as President, with all that governmental structure, perhaps Stacey could delegate someone to answer our questions if she doesn't have time to answer them herself.

I appologize for not posting for awhile.  I wanted to wait until I had the time available to answer all your questions.  I'll be able to do that if not tomorrow than definately by Monday, until then.

[Hunter Logan]

By prodding a few links, I found Stacey is also from this group, http://www.sfcommand.com/ .

From that site,

Starfleet Command is a Free-Form Star Trek Play-by-(e)Mail Role-Playing Organization, spanning the world. Created in 1987, Starfleet Command is more than just your typical Star Trek fan club. Our goal is to appeal to the Writer, Actor, and/or Gamer within everyone.

These simmers are freeform roleplayers in pbem games.

This Intergalactic League is some sort of voluntary government for a group of clubs like SFC.

Does that help?

edit: Softer is better.

[Mike Holmes]

I think that we're getting that picture, Hunter, but I think that it's only part of the picture. For example, it seems to me that these games are also "multiplayer" meaning that everyone is somewhat on their own. That is, they don't so much make up stories together (though that's probably allowed) as making up stories in the same Shared Imagined Space. That is, I can narrate a planet blowing up over here, and that's happening in the same universe as the one you're playing in, but it may be that the event in question is irrellevant to the stuff I'm writing. Or it may be critical to what I'm writing, it's just that there's no requirement for interaction (see the recent post on VoiInd play).

Not that it really much matters. Because Stacey's doing outreach to other forms, it seems to me. So it doesn't so much matter what the current groups are, but whether or not our group is a potential member group to hers. Given that The Forge doesn't constitute a playing body involved in one (or officially any) game, I think that perhaps we don't qualify. On the other hand, I could see us assigning a "diplomat" or something in the name of exploring relations with their body.

Mike

[Stacey Lucht]

I think that we're getting that picture, Hunter, but I think that it's only part of the picture. For example, it seems to me that these games are also "multiplayer" meaning that everyone is somewhat on their own. That is, they don't so much make up stories together (though that's probably allowed) as making up stories in the same Shared Imagined Space. That is, I can narrate a planet blowing up over here, and that's happening in the same universe as the one you're playing in, but it may be that the event in question is irrellevant to the stuff I'm writing. Or it may be critical to what I'm writing, it's just that there's no requirement for interaction (see the recent post on VoiInd play).

Not that it really much matters. Because Stacey's doing outreach to other forms, it seems to me. So it doesn't so much matter what the current groups are, but whether or not our group is a potential member group to hers. Given that The Forge doesn't constitute a playing body involved in one (or officially any) game, I think that perhaps we don't qualify. On the other hand, I could see us assigning a "diplomat" or something in the name of exploring relations with their body.

Mike

Just because you aren't a playing body doesn't necessarily disqualify you from all membership with the league.  It just disqualifies you from Full Membership for now, or at least until my amendment to the constitution pass through the senate.  For right now, you would qualify for membership as an observer club.

As an observer you would still get the same benefits as a full member except, you would not be able to vote on bills and items of note in the senate.

[clehrich]

Stacey,

I skimmed the website a bit, and I'm still confused about one thing in particular.  The site seems to be largely a forum for discussion, presumably of different "sim" groups discussing their games, trolling for players, etc.

So what are the benefits of joining?  I mean, you suggest that the Forge, or various groups with members here, might want to apply.  Why?  What do we gain by doing so?  You mention that observers do not get the power to vote on things.  Such as?  I mean, what do you actually do on this board?

Furthermore, insofar as it appears to be a discussion forum, what makes it different and special?  By definition, everyone here is already a member of an online RPG discussion forum.  What will we gain by joining another?

Please understand, I'm not saying that your group doesn't have value.  I just don't yet see clearly what its particular role is.

Chris Lehrich

[greyorm]

Hey, Stacey mentioned she would try to answer all our already posted questions on Monday, or shortly thereafter. Let's all shut-up and wait politely for that information. If we have any questions or commentary after that, let's post it then, as her forthcoming answers may illuminate your questions.

Otherwise, we're all kind of stumbling around in the dark asking "Where's the lightswitch?" hearing the answer "Just a second, I'll turn it on." and then asking again "Where's the lightswitch?" Give the lady some time to breathe, gentlemen.

[Stacey Lucht]

Stacey,

What is your goal here?

It seems that people keep hitting you up for information and you choose not to provide it.  If you're too busy or something, then OK, but why post at all?  If you're being deliberately obfuscatory, why?

At appears that many of us really have no idea what you, as a human being, do when you "sim."  I think we get that you're logged into some service on the net -- even if it's as simple as exchanging emails, and that you're pretending something.  Beyond that, who knows?  What are you pretending?  Do you have rules?  Who is involved?  Do you want us to know?  If so, why won't you tell us?  If not, why are you here?

You wrote that people "get together and hang out, exchange roleplaying ideas, voice their concerns and participate in community activities."  Could you maybe present a few "roleplaying ideas," "concerns" of the nature that simmers might discuss, and the kind of "community activities" that you host?  

I think part of the confusion, is that you present kind of a bizarre face with this ultra-formal governmental policy to regulate (or something) a bunch of people getting together to make believe.  Presidents and Chief Justices and legislators and what not makes you sound really serious, but I'm not seeing what serious work you're accomplishing.  Is there a tremendous about of coordination taking place among these "simmers?"

Chris  (who asked twelve questions, not just one)

Alright, the goal here is to advertise for the IntraGalactic League of Sims in order to make an effort to increase our membership base.  I was not being deliberate when I wasn't giving information right away and I appologize for that.

As far as explaining what it means to be 'simming' or to participate in a sim.  If you would be as king to provide an email address I can email you a copy of the log from a chat-room based sim.  If you are looking for examples of simming on message board sims then goto www.charmedonesonline.cjb.net - They are the Charmed Ones, they are also a full-league member.

The basics of what we are pretending depends on what group your simming with.  If it's Elite Federation Alliance, they are a star trek group -- you would make up a character and basically mimic the basics of the televisions shows and move through the ranks being stationed on a ship, starbase or planet.  If it's Charmed, Angel or Buffy - you follow the plot and story line on the message boards, really not hard -- but goes with the same basics of the star trek games.

The league itself is governed by a set of rules known as the constitution, however, we do not intervene with how the individual groups govern their own affairs.  All that we ask is that they adhere to League law.  You could say that the League's prime directive is to stay out of the internal affairs of other groups unless they request our assistance.

As far as what simmers discuss in the community.  Well, they're free to discuss anything that is on their mind.  Some examples would be discussing tv episodes, movies and submitting ideas for potential rpg story lines and ideas on how to better the league's government, posting your characters bio as well as comments and quieries on the league's website.

The whole thing about the President's and Chief Justices...and the government of the league.  You have to understand that the league itself is all out of character unless your participating in a league-sponsored rpg.  Other than that, it's you as a person that's involved, not your character.  For example, let's say your involved in a star trek sim, your a sim host, but your also the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court for the league.  While the rpg is in play -- you are the captain of your sim -- Outside of the rpg, you are the sim host and Chief Justice of the League's Court.  

Now, now. Let's keep this as friendly and understanding as possible. Communication across disciplines can be very tricky. Some frustration is inevitable, but let's assume that all sides are trying their best.

Stacey, most of the questions raised here could be answered quite easily, I believe, if you could point us to any Web links where anyone has posted a log or transcript of a session of simming that you would consider representative of your craft. I looked for a while on your site and on the sites of some of your member groups, and I didn't find one, but if simming sessions are conducted by IRC chat or e-mail then surely such logs must exist.

If you're curious in return, here's a link to a thread here on the forge of a session of a role playing game that's representative of the type of gaming we discuss at the Forge: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=9442. The game was played face to face, so there is no verbatim transcript. What's posted in a summary of what happened in the imagined story during the course of play. There were four players, one playing each of the "minons" described, and one playing the role of the Master. Each "scene" was narrated in turn by one or more of the players. The players were following fairly precise rules (which unfortunately are not specified in the account) governing what each scene would be about, and they sometimes used dice to determine how a scene would end or what effect a character's action would have next. Within the framework required by the rules and by the die rolls, the players improvised all the details as they went. The game system is called "My Life with Master" by Paul Czege, and the game session was conducted the same inquisitive gentleman who posted the previous post (I assume he played the Master).

The other main area of curiosity is the nature of the needs that your organization fulfills. I gather that all that about the judges and legislators are your group's equivalent of bylaws. As such, they're not bizarre at all; all membership organizations have them. (The Forge, by the way, is not a memebership organization and has no such bylaws; you can read about how the Forge works in the "Ettiquette at the Forge" sticky thread, fifth from the top in this Site Discussion forum.) But it's a little unusual to have the main pages of your site be all about that, because while bylaws tell how a group makes decisions, resolves disputes, and conducts its business, what most visitors to your site are more likely to want to know is what that business is -- that is, what the group actually does as a group, what services it provides, what privileges its members enjoy, how the members use the group to help each other out. We'd like to know more about that.

Best regards,

Walt

As I specified above, if you post your email address I'd be glad to email you a copy of a log from a sim to give you the general idea.

As far as what services we provide, it's simple enough.  To members of the league we offer: Free Web Hosting, Assistance in Web Design from the Web Development Bureau,  Assistance with organization for their club, Opportunities to get involved with the political government of the league, bi-annual presidential elections every March 19 and September 19 and of course the Simming Academy to train newbi simmers in the ways of simming (Once approved by the Senate).

I'd also like to say that as President, with all that governmental structure, perhaps Stacey could delegate someone to answer our questions if she doesn't have time to answer them herself.

I am sorry that it took this long.  I knew it wasn't permenant, which is why I didn't delegate another person to answer for me.  Besides, I figured it would be better to hear from the President anyway.

By prodding a few links, I found Stacey is also from this group, http://www.sfcommand.com/ .

From that site,

Starfleet Command is a Free-Form Star Trek Play-by-(e)Mail Role-Playing Organization, spanning the world. Created in 1987, Starfleet Command is more than just your typical Star Trek fan club. Our goal is to appeal to the Writer, Actor, and/or Gamer within everyone.

These simmers are freeform roleplayers in pbem games.

This Intergalactic League is some sort of voluntary government for a group of clubs like SFC.

Does that help?

edit: Softer is better.

Yes, I am from the Starfleet Command group, I'm the director of their Military Staff Committee.  We are a PBEM group, however, we do have chat and message board gamming as well.

I think that we're getting that picture, Hunter, but I think that it's only part of the picture. For example, it seems to me that these games are also "multiplayer" meaning that everyone is somewhat on their own. That is, they don't so much make up stories together (though that's probably allowed) as making up stories in the same Shared Imagined Space. That is, I can narrate a planet blowing up over here, and that's happening in the same universe as the one you're playing in, but it may be that the event in question is irrellevant to the stuff I'm writing. Or it may be critical to what I'm writing, it's just that there's no requirement for interaction (see the recent post on VoiInd play).

Not that it really much matters. Because Stacey's doing outreach to other forms, it seems to me. So it doesn't so much matter what the current groups are, but whether or not our group is a potential member group to hers. Given that The Forge doesn't constitute a playing body involved in one (or officially any) game, I think that perhaps we don't qualify. On the other hand, I could see us assigning a "diplomat" or something in the name of exploring relations with their body.

Mike
_________________
Member of Indie Netgaming
-Get your indie game fix online.

Just because you aren't a playing body doesn't necessarily disqualify you from all membership with the league. It just disqualifies you from Full Membership for now, or at least until my amendment to the constitution pass through the senate. For right now, you would qualify for membership as an observer club.

As an observer you would still get the same benefits as a full member except, you would not be able to vote on bills and items of note in the senate.

Stacey,

I skimmed the website a bit, and I'm still confused about one thing in particular. The site seems to be largely a forum for discussion, presumably of different "sim" groups discussing their games, trolling for players, etc.

So what are the benefits of joining? I mean, you suggest that the Forge, or various groups with members here, might want to apply. Why? What do we gain by doing so? You mention that observers do not get the power to vote on things. Such as? I mean, what do you actually do on this board?

Furthermore, insofar as it appears to be a discussion forum, what makes it different and special? By definition, everyone here is already a member of an online RPG discussion forum. What will we gain by joining another?

Please understand, I'm not saying that your group doesn't have value. I just don't yet see clearly what its particular role is.

Chris Lehrich

The ones doing the voting are the senators in the senate.  The items that can be voted upon by the senate are as follows: Bills that involve ratifying the constitution, New members, New Justice Appointments and the creation of league bureaus (Ex. such as the Elections Bureau or the Web Development Bureau.)

What you will be getting from joining another community is meeting more people with the same interests in role-playing as you and myself do.  

Hey, Stacey mentioned she would try to answer all our already posted questions on Monday, or shortly thereafter. Let's all shut-up and wait politely for that information. If we have any questions or commentary after that, let's post it then, as her forthcoming answers may illuminate your questions.

Otherwise, we're all kind of stumbling around in the dark asking "Where's the lightswitch?" hearing the answer "Just a second, I'll turn it on." and then asking again "Where's the lightswitch?" Give the lady some time to breathe, gentlemen.

Thanks, appreciate that.  Thank you for the floor everyone.

[JamesSterrett]

Following Stacey's link, here's a further link to a concrete example of play-in-progress:

http://togrc.com/forums/showthread.php?ID=charmedone&t=97725

Coming to this without knowing anything about "Charmed" (a TV show, from the info on the site), a "GM" (not called such necessarily) sets a scene, that appears to link to prior events - it isn't clear if those events are in the show or in a prior game.  The players post up their actions onto the BBS, acting and reacting to each other.

It looks to me, at first blush, as if this is certainly what the Forge would call an RPG, and the players are Exploring Setting.  


Stacey: I think there are two levels of confusion that people are asking you about.

First is, "What are your games like?"  You've provided a good answer to that in the above link, I think.

The second is, "What does your League do?"  You haven't really explained that; let me try to explain why I, at least, am not grasping your explanation.

Suppose I came up to you with an automatic can opener, and explained all the neato cool workings of it - but you'd never seen a can before, and I assumed that cans were so obvious I had no need to explain their existence.

Essentially, the same is happening.  I'm not grasping what problem your Senate and Judges and so on are intended to solve.  In terms of the above example, I've never seen a can, so I can only nod in bemusement while you explain how gearbox of the can-opener works.  Tell me about the can.  :)

Thinking this over, part of my confusion stems from thinking that "facilitating discussion of our games" by setting up what sounds like a major administrative structure seems like opening an egg by hitting it with a jackhammer.  Facilitating discussion is a perfectly reasonable goal, but the methods described seem ill-suited to the task, leading me to suspect I don't really understand the goal.

[Mike Holmes]

James, I think I get it. Let my do a hypothetical, and Stacey can correct me where I'll inevitably be wrong.

Let's say that I'm the senator from one Star Trek game that plays in the classic Trek era, and there's another that plays in the post DS9 era. Now, with time travel, we can theorize about players hopping from one game to the next, and decide we want to do it. But in one of the games they play GM-less, and in another they have a GM who sets scenes. The senate could be used as a forum to decide what way to go in terms of how "inter-game players" would be allowed to handle play. Would the players from the GM-less game be allowed to do their own scene framing, or not?

The game in question would pass the matter to the senate who would debate and vote on it.

Now, that's probably a terrible example, but does it give an idea of a sort of issue that their Senate might be able to address? Also, looking at the overall membership of three groups right now, they're new, and probably don't really have all that much of an idea themselves about what uses the group could be put to. That is, I'm guessing that they're hoping to develop synergies that they don't forsee yet by the application of the senate.

Mike

[Stacey Lucht]

James, I think I get it. Let my do a hypothetical, and Stacey can correct me where I'll inevitably be wrong.

Let's say that I'm the senator from one Star Trek game that plays in the classic Trek era, and there's another that plays in the post DS9 era. Now, with time travel, we can theorize about players hopping from one game to the next, and decide we want to do it. But in one of the games they play GM-less, and in another they have a GM who sets scenes. The senate could be used as a forum to decide what way to go in terms of how "inter-game players" would be allowed to handle play. Would the players from the GM-less game be allowed to do their own scene framing, or not?

The game in question would pass the matter to the senate who would debate and vote on it.

Now, that's probably a terrible example, but does it give an idea of a sort of issue that their Senate might be able to address? Also, looking at the overall membership of three groups right now, they're new, and probably don't really have all that much of an idea themselves about what uses the group could be put to. That is, I'm guessing that they're hoping to develop synergies that they don't forsee yet by the application of the senate.

Mike

There is one big problem with that, Mike.  If the Senate tried to establish a bill on that sort of thing.  The Court would rule it unconstitutional because it would infringe on the League's member rights to group sovoreignty.  The league cannot establish laws and rulings that infringe or take away governing power from any member club, doing so is no different than tyranny.

To clarify, the senate is for senators to vote on league issues like new members, ratifying the constitution, expelling members, suspending members.  The duties of the senate and what they can and can't do are listed on the constitution - www.leagueofsims.cjb.net

[clehrich]

To clarify, the senate is for senators to vote on league issues like new members, ratifying the constitution, expelling members, suspending members.  The duties of the senate and what they can and can't do are listed on the constitution - www.leagueofsims.cjb.net

Okay, let me ask this sidelong.  Hypothetically, suppose I run a gaming club, and we decide to join the League and so forth.  Now we do something really terrible, and we have to be expelled or suspended, which will clearly call for the Senate.

What, for example, might I and my group have done?  Is it simply using totally inappropriate language on a League board (hate speech, etc.)?  Or is there more to it than that?

Like James, I'm just not getting why I want to sign on to an additional government.  I mean, the Forge is pretty tightly moderated, by most online standards, and we all have to kiss our golden ikons of Ron daily <g>, but I sure don't see the need for more government than that.  Whatever for?

Chris Lehrich

P.S. I should note that the constitution at that link is exceedingly nonspecific.

[Stacey Lucht]

To clarify, the senate is for senators to vote on league issues like new members, ratifying the constitution, expelling members, suspending members.  The duties of the senate and what they can and can't do are listed on the constitution - www.leagueofsims.cjb.net

Okay, let me ask this sidelong.  Hypothetically, suppose I run a gaming club, and we decide to join the League and so forth.  Now we do something really terrible, and we have to be expelled or suspended, which will clearly call for the Senate.

What, for example, might I and my group have done?  Is it simply using totally inappropriate language on a League board (hate speech, etc.)?  Or is there more to it than that?

Like James, I'm just not getting why I want to sign on to an additional government.  I mean, the Forge is pretty tightly moderated, by most online standards, and we all have to kiss our golden ikons of Ron daily <g>, but I sure don't see the need for more government than that.  Whatever for?

Chris Lehrich

P.S. I should note that the constitution at that link is exceedingly nonspecific.

If you're really curious on what kind of trouble makers we ran into in the past you can visit our site and click on the Supreme Court and on the left hand side, you'll see the Supreme Court menus.  There is a link called Decisions, that is a list of all trials and decisions that we're ever held in the Courts.

In order to be expelled...there's really no set definition.  All you really have to do is piss off enough of the senators that will vote for an expulsion bill against your club.  A

As for the constitution--your right..it is very vague and non-specific...don't blame me, that was before I became involved with the league.

[montag]

Stacey, you still don't seem to grasp the extent of our ignorance about the stuff you do. Explain it like you would explain it to a twelve year old, that is: don't quote the official documents at us, or use diplomatic speech. Use plain English. And provide examples, lots of.
Thanks. And now, could you please explain what "crimes against simming" are and what – in your particular context – is considered a "war crime".
If you can find the time, I'd also like to ask you to answer Chris' question concerning the purpose of your League again. Preferably by saying stuff like "We organise X. We're taking action against Y, when condition Z occurs.". It might be helpful, if you could remember – or find out – why the League was originally formed, what specific concerns it was created to address.
Again, thanks for your patience.

edit: Aaargh, forget that, Stacey's answered that already:

As far as what services we provide, it's simple enough.  To members of the league we offer: Free Web Hosting, Assistance in Web Design from the Web Development Bureau,  Assistance with organization for their club, Opportunities to get involved with the political government of the league, bi-annual presidential elections every March 19 and September 19 and of course the Simming Academy to train newbi simmers in the ways of simming (Once approved by the Senate).

As far as the rest of the administrative overhead is concerned, it seems Mike was pretty close

Also, looking at the overall membership of three groups right now, they're new, and probably don't really have all that much of an idea themselves about what uses the group could be put to. That is, I'm guessing that they're hoping to develop synergies that they don't forsee yet by the application of the senate.

This whole League structure, which is so confusing to us seems to be merely the result of some simmers getting together for company (possibly exchanging players, learning from the other sims, discussing what rules generally work, establishing community standards etc.). I guess it was initially decided to give this some formal/governmental outlook because that seems to fit well into the Sci-Fi/ Star Trek background of most groups (from the Charmed Ones' website I got to what appears to be an earlier incarnation of the League http://www.simmingleague.com/ ).
But I expect, in principle any club-organisation-structure would have done. All the Senate, Constitution and Supreme Court stuff could probably be re-named to MOM (meeting of moderators), club rules and DBSI (decisions on bans and similar issues) or whatever. Being simmers, they apparently opted for the more colourful route. (If I'm wrong in this, I trust Stacey will correct my misunderstandings.)[/i]