IntraGalactic League of Sims

[Walt Freitag]

Folks, this is really simple. Those are the League's bylaws. Every club has them. They're just like the bylaws of your local historical society or bird watchers club. Think of them as the outside-the-game portion of the social contract, in legalese. They govern how the organization runs, such as what the membership requirements are, who gets voting rights, what disciplinary measures (such as loss of voting rights or revocation of memberships) can be imposed and how, the time and location of meetings and their format, and so forth. Usually they have very little directly to do with the actual purpose of the organization. For instance, the bylaws of a bird watcher's club will probably say little or nothing about how bird watching activities will be conducted. Corporate bylaws (all corporations have them) usually say little or nothing about what the corporation will actually sell, or how it will do so. What bylaws do say is how the organization will appoint, elect, or otherwise designate the people who decide such things.

The only unusual thing about the League's bylaws is that they make such a big deal out of them, posting them prominently on the main pages of the Web site. It's kind of like the bird watchers club handing out flyers to prospective members that, instead of describing how cool bird watching is or how the club can make your bird watching better, it's telling you how the balloting is carried out when the club secretary is elected and how to file a complaint with its grievance committee. Because the League is new, its own bylaws are much on its mind. This happens sometimes. It will pass.

I don't see additional government being an issue. The League's rules cannot have any influence on the Forge or its individual contributors except to affect their participation in the League itself. For instance, if the League decided to ban naughty words on all member organization's public Web sites, and the Forge owners don't want to comply with that, the most that could happen is that the League could revoke the Forge's membership. Only if the membership carried value that the Forge couldn't afford to do without, which is clearly not the case here, would that threat carry any clout.

- Walt

[Stacey Lucht]

Folks, this is really simple. Those are the League's bylaws. Every club has them. They're just like the bylaws of your local historical society or bird watchers club. Think of them as the outside-the-game portion of the social contract, in legalese. They govern how the organization runs, such as what the membership requirements are, who gets voting rights, what disciplinary measures (such as loss of voting rights or revocation of memberships) can be imposed and how, the time and location of meetings and their format, and so forth. Usually they have very little directly to do with the actual purpose of the organization. For instance, the bylaws of a bird watcher's club will probably say little or nothing about how bird watching activities will be conducted. Corporate bylaws (all corporations have them) usually say little or nothing about what the corporation will actually sell, or how it will do so. What bylaws do say is how the organization will appoint, elect, or otherwise designate the people who decide such things.

The only unusual thing about the League's bylaws is that they make such a big deal out of them, posting them prominently on the main pages of the Web site. It's kind of like the bird watchers club handing out flyers to prospective members that, instead of describing how cool bird watching is or how the club can make your bird watching better, it's telling you how the balloting is carried out when the club secretary is elected and how to file a complaint with its grievance committee. Because the League is new, its own bylaws are much on its mind. This happens sometimes. It will pass.

I don't see additional government being an issue. The League's rules cannot have any influence on the Forge or its individual contributors except to affect their participation in the League itself. For instance, if the League decided to ban naughty words on all member organization's public Web sites, and the Forge owners don't want to comply with that, the most that could happen is that the League could revoke the Forge's membership. Only if the membership carried value that the Forge couldn't afford to do without, which is clearly not the case here, would that threat carry any clout.

- Walt

::looks up in the heavens:: A bloody men....

You are right.  My only question is that will the Forge be considering joining the League.  Also you may want to check out the Resources link for the history of the league.  In there, it explains how we came to be from the Simming League.

[M. J. Young]

My only question is that will the Forge be considering joining the League.

Well, we have taken up a great deal of Stacy's time, and caused her great frustration in our efforts to understand what this was all about. Thank you so much, Stacy, for your efforts to clarify what you're doing.

Now for the really awkward apology.

No one who has posted to this thread has any power to make that decision. Quite a few of us are pillars of the community here--but The Forge quite specifically is the property of Ron Edwards and Clinton Nixon. It is actually entirely up to them to decide whether they want to participate in this umbrella organization.

I could guess the answer, but my guess is not going to be helpful.

Thank you for explaining so patiently what you're all about, as well as you were able. Please except our apology that we aren't able to give you an answer. It may be that Ron and Clinton are already discussing this somewhere behind the scenes and will let you know what they think. I trust you can be patient at least a little longer as they consider the matter.

--M. J. Young

[Stacey Lucht]

My only question is that will the Forge be considering joining the League.

Well, we have taken up a great deal of Stacy's time, and caused her great frustration in our efforts to understand what this was all about. Thank you so much, Stacy, for your efforts to clarify what you're doing.

Now for the really awkward apology.

No one who has posted to this thread has any power to make that decision. Quite a few of us are pillars of the community here--but The Forge quite specifically is the property of Ron Edwards and Clinton Nixon. It is actually entirely up to them to decide whether they want to participate in this umbrella organization.

I could guess the answer, but my guess is not going to be helpful.

Thank you for explaining so patiently what you're all about, as well as you were able. Please except our apology that we aren't able to give you an answer. It may be that Ron and Clinton are already discussing this somewhere behind the scenes and will let you know what they think. I trust you can be patient at least a little longer as they consider the matter.

--M. J. Young

Being patient is part of the title and your appology is not needed.  I just didn't know who was responsible for making decisions for the forge.  Thank you for making that clarification and should any more questions arise, I'll be poping in and out from time to time....

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Stacey, I appreciate the time you've spent clarifying things for us.

Since the Forge is not an organization or even an association - it's just a website, period - it can't "join" anything.

On the other hand, if someone who could join your organization learned about it at the Forge, that would be a fine thing.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

[Edited to note that I cross posted with Ron]

Stacey,

I just spent some time prowling around your fora for the league. I'm tempted to criticize your format, but I realize that my problems with it are probably not fair, and come largely from a lack of understanding of the form. But the handling of character vs player issues is different from what we're used to here, to say the least. It made reading the fora very difficult.

My point is that I think that we still have a long way to go in understanding each other's forms. We're doing a lot here to try to get a feel for your form, and failing largely due to the fact that you really won't discuss it. Worse, you've made no attempt to discover what it is that we do here. Either you know how we play and haven't let us know that, or you don't know, and don't care.

All of which tempts me to think that you're behaving in a manner that seems typical of your form from the posts that I've read. Which is that you're here "recriuiting" for your games - looking to expand your community at the expense of ours. Now, perhaps I've gotten the wrong idea, and correct me where I'm wrong. But if you're trying to be inclusive of other forms, then you need to indicate just what you know about them, or need to know to incorporate our form into your discussions.

Because if we sent somebody over there today, I can garuntee that they wouldn't know where to start discussing things. It's like you're all speaking Greek. Until you deal with that, I'm guessing that enthusiasm for the idea of us sending a Senator will be slim and none.

I have a funny feeling that the above is somehow Greek to you, because I keep asking questions, and you keep ignoring them. Are you having trouble understanding our posts? Or are you just too busy to respond thoroughly?

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

OK, it's time.

Mike, I hope you'll forgive me in essentially blotting out your most recent post. All the information is available on both sites; both sites are the way that their creators want them to be; everyone needs to think and wait ... just to see what useful cross-fertilizations appear, if any.

Debating about it becomes debating about debating about it, and that becomes re-stating and re-clarifying and re-defending the debate about the debate about the debate ...

C'mon, let's all take a breather.

Best,
Ron

[Stacey Lucht]

Hello,

Stacey, I appreciate the time you've spent clarifying things for us.

Since the Forge is not an organization or even an association - it's just a website, period - it can't "join" anything.

On the other hand, if someone who could join your organization learned about it at the Forge, that would be a fine thing.

Best,
Ron

You may not be an organization but you are a role playing community and as of this morning...it makes The Forge eligible for full membership in the league.  A constitutional amendment was passed to make this possible.

[Stacey Lucht]

[Edited to note that I cross posted with Ron]

Stacey,

I just spent some time prowling around your fora for the league. I'm tempted to criticize your format, but I realize that my problems with it are probably not fair, and come largely from a lack of understanding of the form. But the handling of character vs player issues is different from what we're used to here, to say the least. It made reading the fora very difficult.

My point is that I think that we still have a long way to go in understanding each other's forms. We're doing a lot here to try to get a feel for your form, and failing largely due to the fact that you really won't discuss it. Worse, you've made no attempt to discover what it is that we do here. Either you know how we play and haven't let us know that, or you don't know, and don't care.

All of which tempts me to think that you're behaving in a manner that seems typical of your form from the posts that I've read. Which is that you're here "recriuiting" for your games - looking to expand your community at the expense of ours. Now, perhaps I've gotten the wrong idea, and correct me where I'm wrong. But if you're trying to be inclusive of other forms, then you need to indicate just what you know about them, or need to know to incorporate our form into your discussions.

Because if we sent somebody over there today, I can garuntee that they wouldn't know where to start discussing things. It's like you're all speaking Greek. Until you deal with that, I'm guessing that enthusiasm for the idea of us sending a Senator will be slim and none.

I have a funny feeling that the above is somehow Greek to you, because I keep asking questions, and you keep ignoring them. Are you having trouble understanding our posts? Or are you just too busy to respond thoroughly?

Mike

Okay firstly, I do appologize for not explaining everything thouroughly, it's not intentional, it is lack of time.  I make the posts that I have time to do.  Out of character, I'm a law student on my last year and interning in a firm, so you'll understand when I tell you that I have a pretty full plate in addition to being President of the league.

I agree...we do have a while to go before we can begin to understand each other.  From what I gather, you deel with mostly discussing 'tabletop' gaming, Ron and Mike please correct me when necessary.  I am interesting in knowing and I do care.

I'm really sorry that you're tempted to think that all I'm doing is recruiting to expand my league at the expense of your community, that is so not true.  I'd like to call what I'm doing External Community Outreach.  Reaching out to other gaming communities to establish  a form of communication to bridge the gap between the different gaming techniques.

I do understand your skepticism and if I we're in your shoes, I may be very much inclines to think and believe the same thing.  All I can do is put my best foot forwards and attempt to make things better between you and I.  Once again thank you for the floor.

[Mark Johnson]

I hearby nominate Mike Holmes to be our ambasador.

[Mike Holmes]

I hearby nominate Mike Holmes to be our ambasador.

I suppose in an ironic way, I deserve that. :-)

No problem, Ron, like I said, cross-posted. Would have been better if I'd seen what you posted first.

Stacy, you've been nothing but charming, and I hope that we can understand each other better in the future.

Mike

[Stacey Lucht]

I hearby nominate Mike Holmes to be our ambasador.

Forgive me for stating the obvious...but I'm a little confused.  According to my information, Ron is the Administrator who has decision making authority for The Forge.  He stated I believe that he wasn't interested in joining.  Forgive me if I misunderstood Ron in anyway.

If I am mistaken and The Forge is planning on joining.  Please visit the league's website and fill out the application so that I can get the ball rolling on your membership in the Senate.  Thanks  www.leagueofsims.cjb.net

[Mark Johnson]

A website can't join, but similarly a website can't refuse to join either.

I set up a thread at the InterGalactic League of Sims about "What is Simming?"  I hope to get some answers either here or there.

Regards,
Mark

[Mark Johnson]

This simming link is very informative.  If you read enough of the links it becomes very clear why organizations like the Intragalactic League of Sims developed.  The history is quite fascinating and seems to have its roots in play by mail fandom.  Perhaps we should start a thread on Simming on RPG Theory as the convergence of role playing styles and independent innovations is quite fascinating.

[greyorm]

I hearby nominate Mike Holmes to be our ambasador.

Forgive me for stating the obvious...but I'm a little confused.

Heya Stacey,

I believe that was just a little tongue-in-cheek humor at Mike's expense, for having given you such a hard time.

Regarding our actual joining, as Ron pointed out, I don't think we really qualify to join, as we aren't an entity or club by ourselves. The Forge is more a meeting place for a variety of small (around 4-5 person) clubs, or at least their "representatives" (frex, I'm the only one from my group who visits the Forge).

Mark,

That's a lot of information to go through...any chance you (or some other kind soul) could do a summary of it for us?