oh no. Not another thread about hit points.

[Sparky]

Hi all.

I'll come clean. I don't mean Hit Points, per se. What I mean is options for forcing character retirement based on injuries AND/OR more narrative/storyline concerns. Specifically, I want a mechanic or process that makes it apparent how close to 'dead' (in body or spirit) you are. A shocking revelation or death of a friend could/should/might carry as much impact as a sucking chest wound.

The setup: We're doing a game in an (1873) American old-west setting. There's no supernatural or other special effects to factor in, and the players want to hew pretty closely to 'real' old west action. Sim concerns triumph, mitigated only by the GM looking out for an interesting story. The players stated that they want the real old west, but that's to be colored by them describing their favorite old-west movie scenes too.

(As I type this, I just can't shake the sense that you, the reader, is imagining a sort of Cowboys-and-Indians-done-RUNE style. It's not.)
But there just may come a point where a bullet to the chest is simply too much to survive. It's expected.

What I have done, so far, is to remind them about the possibility of death, and then, if there is damage, roll against their Guts (or Heart) stat as a damage save. It has been used only once so far and seemed to work okay, but I was reckoning that y'all might have some other ideas I could consider.

One other option that appeals to me is to use the concept of survival points from EPICS, but limit them to improving their Guts. I dunno.

Thanks!

Sparky

PS...I did a search for 'hit points' and got 11 thousand results. So then I did 'hit AND points' and got 23 pages or so. Nothing really addressed my problem, so here I am asking. I would think that there's a thread that discusses this somewhere.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

Hi, Sparky.

This is quite a pickle you're in. Simulationism in the old west is likely to be deadly.

Off the top of my head, I suggest a luck stat of some kind to avoid getting killed. Therefore, you can stay alive until your luck runs out sort of thing. Exactly how I'll leave to you or we could discuss it if you want.

[Ole]

How about using wound levels? Its basically hp with another name. When a character fails his save, the degree of failure determines the number of wound levels lost. Give the wound levels nice descriptive names, and you all know how close the characters are to death. The only problem is that is doesnt really cover the 'seeing a friend die' effect.

[Zoetrope10]

The Barony FRPG (Better Games, 1990) had a character damage chart that you could easily adapt. Characters were described by adjectives. These adjectives were then mapped to one or more of four wound columns, on the character damage chart. As you took damage, you crossed off adjectives, depending on the wound type. When you had no more adjectives in a column you overflowed to the next column. When you ran out of adjectives in your columns you were dead. There was a column for 'spirit' wounds too; its overflow was 'unconscious'.

Here's what the chart kind of looked like, using rows instead of columns. Each row maps to one kind of wound type ie take a bleeder and cross off one adjective from the bleeder row. Newbies might start off with only a few adjectives and conceivably have only 2 Bruise/cut, 2 Bleeder, 2 Vicious, 2 Spirit (all of which they would get just from 'Base' and 'Player').

Bruise/cut
Base--Player--Durable--Defender--Cutpurse--Thief--Destroyer--Heinous One; Overflow = Bleeder

Bleeder
Base--Player--Durable--Weapon Master--War Knight--Sensai--Destroyer--Heinous One; Overflow = Vicious

Vicious
Base--Player--Durable--Mystic--Hero--Immaculate--Battlemaster--Heinous One; Overflow = Slain

Spirit
Base--Player--Fast--Bold--Warlock--Wizard--Destroyer--Heinous One; Overflow = Unconscious

Incurring a bruise/cut would additionally result in a –1 penalty to all rolls in the next combat round; one or more bleeders would cause you to lose all of your actions in the next combat round; the pain of a vicious wound would incapacitate you. Characters with the adjective 'bold' did not suffer any of these special effects.

Bruise/cut wounds were recovered at the end of each battle. Bleeders and Vicious wounds healed at the conclusion of each adventure. Spirit wounds could be cured only by magic.

This approach can be adapted to other genres, by changing the wound descriptions and adjectives; reducing the number of columns; and modifying the special effects.

You can also increase weapon lethality by increasing the likelihood of causing the heavier kinds of wounds. Punches might mostly cause bruise/cuts or possibly a bleeder; a scattergun might be unlikely to cause a bruise/cut and more likely to cause a bleeder or a vicious.

[Eric J.]

This may be dumb but I would drop trying to 'simulate' the old west.  Maybe it's just me  but I have never seen a real important reason to simulate reality in an RPG.  Your game may be cowboy movie inspired, western book inspired, but I seriously doubt that it was inspired by your great grandfather's journals or whatever.

I'd make simulating reality a priority, not the goal.

May the wind be always at your back,
-Empyrealmortal

[Lara]

If your not looking to put in perma death, maybe something we are using in our game.  Two stat points.  One for consiousness and one for life.  The relationship between the two is up to you, but basically CONS is what determines if your still on your feet.  Once you get knocked out from CON loss you take loss to LIFE.  That gets the player out of the current fight, but preserves the fiction of death.  So you dont have "die-res-kill".

You could mix it up a bit and have some portion of cons go to life directly if its a very hard hit.  And you could make the healing of LIFE a bit of an effort ... i.e. getting the bullet pulled out.

Lara

your welcome to use the idea if it amuses you, here is the write up:
http://www.sanctuaryshard.com/postnuke-test/index.php?module=subjects&func=viewpage&pageid=333

[MPOSullivan]

what kind of system are you using right now as your basic Conflict Res Mechanic?  it's always a smart idea to try and have your damage system work hand in hand with it, or just be a direct parralel of it in some way.  

if it's a dice pool system or something with a measurable degree of success/failure, maybe you could use a wound levels system (a la White Wolf or Shadowrun) and have the player roll against a damage check for both wounds inflicted during combat and horrible stuff that would wear down a character personally.  Your damamge system could be called an "Exhaustion" mechanic, and believe me, the naming of things is a powerful tool.  

so, let's say for instance that a character has been shot.  The Player would roll his Will/Guts/Spirit/Heart/What Have You against the damamge rating of the weapon.  For every pointof success that the weapon gets in damaging the player is one Exhaustion level checked, or whatever ladder distance you want it to climb.

at the same time, you could have a player make the same check against the level of difficulty it is to cope with the death of the PC's wife and children at the hands of his worst enemy.  Roll badly enough and the character may just die of sadness over it.

just an idea.  and, like i said above, knowing what kind of system you're using would be a bonus.  integration is lovely!

[komradebob]

I'll throw in my 2 cents.

Many mooms ago, TSR put out a '20s game called Gangbusters. It used HPs, but it had an interesting sub rule. When a character reached damage = 1/2 their total HPs or greater, that character needed proper medical help within 24 hours, or they would die. Also, characters healed slowly from deadly damage (they had a seperate damage for "bruises" that added to your total damage, but healed faster), about 1 hp/week. I also seem to recall that there were optional rules for hit location that could affect movement/shooting ability, etc.

The main thing I find with Realworld based settings is that characters have to deal with the after effects of their actions. Characters in Fantasy settings may or may not have to deal with the results, depending on the GM's plans. This is something you may want to consider. I think it is a fairly large philosophical difference.

[The Immortal MOOSE!]

How realistic of a game are you running?

Speaking from some experience, I can tell you that gun combat is a funny thing.  There are people who've been shot twice or three times in the chest and walked awat from it, and then there are those who've taken a shot to the foot and died from shock.  If you want "Total Realism", I think that the best way to do it would be with two very simple tables:

1.  The Random Hit Location Table:  This table basically determines where you get hit.  If you were using a D10 for this roll, the table might look something like this:

1 Head Shot
2-4 Torso Shot
5 Left Arm
6 Right Arm
7-8 Left Leg
9-10 Right Leg

2.  Random Effects Table:  This table basically determines the effect that the shot has.  Everything from a graze to a shot to a vital area.  Modelled on the same D10 roll, it might look a wee bit like this:

1-2 Shot grazes, causing superficial damage.  Looks ugly and is a bit painful, but no real harm is done.  A minor penalty is imposed on some future actions.

3-4 Shot connects solidly with flesh, causing a painful wound that bleeds a fair ammount.  This type of wound isn't immediately fatal, but can kill (blood loss) if left untreated for too long.  This type of wound will also cause moderate penaties.

5-6 Shot grazes something vital, causing whatever it hits serious pain.  If this wound is left unchecked, the person could die very quickly.  This wound bleeds fairly quickly, but the character is capable of functioning for a short period of time with severe penalties.

7-8 Shot connects solidly with a vital spot, incapacitating the character.  The may not move or take any actions, although they may still be conscious.  If this wound isn't treated within a very short time period (like a few minutes) it will be fatal.

9-10 Shot strikes a vital area, killing the character if not instantly than within a moment or two.

Obviously, this idea does away with the whole "damage mechanic" concept, instead relying on a much more cinematic method of combat.  To make it less lethal, you might allow a player to reroll each wound that might cause instant death, or cause permanent damage once, and have them take the result of thier choice.

[The Immortal MOOSE!]

Just had another inspiration.... the Permanent Injuries Table.

Permant Injuries Table:  Any time a character is treated for a wound that has resulted in a 3 or higher on the Random Effects Table, them must roll on the following table, again modelled using the D10:

1-2 Lucked out, no permanent Injury.

3-4 Character suffers minor pain in the affected area, casuing stiffness and mild impairment during certain circumstances (When it rains or is cold, for example.)

5-6 Minor impairment of the affected area (A limb loses a small ammount of mobility, a head shot might result in slightly dulled vision or hearing.)

7-8 Significant impairment of affected area (Limbs loose much mobility, head shots result in brain damage or possibly more severe dulling of multiple senses.  A torso shot might result in a heart wound, causing the person to develop a heart condition.)

9-10  Total impairment of the affected area.  (A limb becomes useless or needs to be amputated, if a torso shot the victim is a para/quadrapeligic)

[Jonathan Walton]

Hey Sparky,

Sounds like you don't want a "simulate reality" mechanic.  It's not about realism, it's about appropriateness to the Old West as a genre.  You're "simulating fiction."

In Argonauts, my soon-to-be-released game about mythic Greek superheroes, I use an interesting damage system based on a character's Fate (which was measured in a wound-like system, where you can take X wounds before dying).  However, once a character takes a specific number of wounds, certain things happen in the narrative of the story.  At 5 wounds, they get a omen or prophecy of their ultimate fate.  At 10, they understand their tragic flaw.  At 15, they recieve a vision of how their destruction might play out.  And, at 20, they're dead or destroyed to the point of not being a hero anymore (like Oedipus poking his eyes out).

One of the major purposes of the game is to emulate tragedy, but you could easily do something similar in a game that wasn't about that.  For instance, in Argonauts, you could take wounds for things besides damage, such as action that purposefully moved you closer to your fate.  I see this very much like the "shocking revelation" or "death of a buddy" that you described in your opening post.

In any case, I suggest you think about it a bit and see what you want the damage system to do for the story, not just based on any ideas about realism or whatever.

[orbsmatt]

Just to throw in my two cents, I like the hit location idea.  The GM can then go ahead and dramatize whatever happens, thus giving the impact with some sort of system.

Otherwise it can be hard to tell how critical a shot is.

[Sparky]

Aigh!

I typed out a good sized response, but it didn't take. I'll re-respond tomorrow.

These are great posts. All of them have things that appeal to me.

Thanks!
Sparky

[The Immortal MOOSE!]

I've had another thought inside my devious little miniature poodle brain....

And no.... it was not  "Hey! Let's go pee on the mailman's leg!"

Instead of simply allowing a player to re-roll a result that kills the character or causes a severe/ permanent injury, why not hand out "Luck Points" or "Fate Points"?  Each player recieves ONE point at the beginning of a gaming session, and may recieve additional points during the session for truely great roleplaying.  These points can be redeemed at any time to force a reroll of dice for any actions that directly affect the character. Fate points are not renewed between gaming sessions, once a fate point is spent it is gone.

EXAMPLE MODE ON:

An enemy takes a potshot at the PC and hits.  The PC has the option of redeeming a fate point to force the enemy to reroll the attack roll.  A player may continue spending fate points in this manner, up to his maximum.  He MUST accept whatever effect was the last one rolled, even if it's WORSE.

The GM then rolls for the effects of being shot on the tables above.  If the PCdoes not like the end result of the three rolls, he can then spend a fate point to have the GM reroll it.  He may do this an unlimited number of times, until he runs out of fate points.  As mentioned above, the PC must accept the final result, even if it's worse than the first roll.

EXAMPLE MODE OFF.

A better mechanic than simply allowing the PC to call for a reroll, ya?  This way, fate may eventually catch up to the character.....

[komradebob]

One possibilty is to treat hps as strictly luck and skill and personal morale, divorced from physical damage. MERP sort of did that, and old Dragon essays suggested something similar about treating AD&D hps the same way. It becomes an explanation for why more experienced characters seem to last longer in combat, and also why they recover so quickly to fight again.

If you have some sort of stat like CON, you might allow damage over the hp value to start rolling over to CON. MERP did this. When CON is gone, the character is dead. For an old west game, perhaps CON loss could be permanent, but hp loss (skill/morale) is relatively easily recoverable. Characters that lose CON, or another physical type trait would start to have a harder time riding/jumping/climbing/swimming, frex.

Alternately, you could have relatively low hps and high damage potential weapons. When the characters take damage, allow them to spread the damage around to hps or physical skills, or even some other characteristics. Damage not on hps is permanent. Thus, the players get some choice on what happens to their character.

As for non-physical damage, allow players to take the points off hps or non-physical skills/characteristics. That gets into the whole question of emotional trauma. Ever gone through a really bad emotional time? Notice how your concentration, etc were really off during that period? That method would reflect those kind of emotional wounds.