TRoS in Middle Earth and Orcs. (+ stats for Mordor War Orcs)

[daagon]

What rules where you using to allow the troll to smash the shield and still cause damage, even after a successful block? Sounds like fun! Bwahahahaa!!

[bergh]

easy. the troll was using a maul, but generaly that dont matter.
What happened was that the troll did an ok hit, but the player ofcourse did a much better block with his shield, when talking dice succeces, but even after deductiong hit vs. block successes, the damage done by the troll was greater then the shields av of 8, therefor i says as the GM, thats the troll smashed his shield, and all extra damage was transfered to his arm and that he was bashed to the ground, becouse of the weight of the trolls and his weapon.
all my players said after the session that they all could see the scene in there head, them circling the troll, and one of them steeped forward to get the trolls attention, hiding behind his large shield, hoping to take the blow, and the other players rushing to injure the troll. and the loved the way how the shield was smashed and he was thrown to the ground, very dramatic, becouse he could do the trick again. and realistic i think.

I ofcourse only use this against shields, not armours, i guess that way shields do have a AV and they are so high, is becouse its possible to smash them. the knockdown effect i simply did makeup my self, a big big troll weapon handled by a big heavy troll, maybe the player can take the damage, but his body weight is simply not enough to stop the weight of the trolls attack.

[bergh]

Hi

I have made some more PDF's with Middel Earth bad guys.

www.fflr.dk/tabletop/TROS/Goblins.pdf
www.fflr.dk/tabletop/TROS/Orcs.pdf
www.fflr.dk/tabletop/TROS/MordorWarOrcs.pdf
www.fflr.dk/tabletop/TROS/UrukHai.pdf
www.fflr.dk/tabletop/TROS/BeastmenRaiders.pdf (big=1mb)

give them some critics and let me see if i need to change them.

Some of the armour options are taken from this list:
www.fflr.dk/tabletop/TROS/Armour.pdf

[Melkor]

Bergh -

How did you modify the Player Characters to fit Middle Earth ?

[Dain]

....oh, it's a sad day for the powers of evil when Morgoth himself openly consults computer forums using the guise of his Fair name to gain an edge over the inhabitants of Middle Earth. What I want to know is how you can type with that Iron Crown bound around your hands and what ISP services the Void?

[bergh]

actully not much, we simply did make standard characters and then began to play, with racial modifiers

Dain, please go more into detail....hehe

[Dain]

More details? I was just curious whether or not he wanted to order some Bactine for those nasty burn marks over his brows....I was going to suggest a good Wallgreens Pharmacy URL for him.

[bottleneck]

Hi
give them some critics and let me see if i need to change them.

my first impressions:

-the orcs are all very high weapon skill.
-the bigger orcs still only have str5

I feel the orcs should be feared because they are big and strong (and cruel), not because they are the world's finest fighters... trading -2 CP for +1 str will give them about the same offensive potetial, but make them much weaker if outnumbered or outmaneuvered. just a thought anyway (also, with fewer dice, they become easier to play for the gm ;->).

Anyway, as they are, orcs are _very_ dangerous to starting characters (or anyone not maxed for combat). And that is when they do not even outnumber them. When you meet 20 uruks plus their captain, though, even Boromir would have trouble...

-the trolls have very low endurance.

A level one stab in the groin, and they could die from the bleeding... Of course, with that toughness, even inflicting a level one wound is heroic.

The toughness is not too high in my opinion: considering that the orc captain in chain has effective toughness 10+shield, then effective 13 for the troll is not overpowered. (a big gondorman in plate would have 11+shield or something: the big difference is that the troll has high strength too!)

Anyway: what is the difference between natural armor and toughness? Just that nat.armor doesn't stack with armor, or do you intend to let half-swording and anti-armor weapons get bonuses against trolls (I like that, but then it would have to be 'hard armor', no?)

-
All in all very good work. The orcs in general are quite dangerous, but if your players are a hard bunch too, then it should work out ok. The trolls seem okay too for those special situations, but give one some orc backup and you have a party-wipeout.

[bergh]

Thanks for answering.

I will TRY to defend my self :-)

1st: yes the orcs are very high, but remeber that this is the WAR orcs of mordor, ie. the mordor orc army, and i have decided that orcs are generaly really good fighters, they live a hard life where fighting is part of maybe every day, and therefor the weak are killed, survival of the fittest.
Else they will be robed, killed and other things not to mention here. I think soldier Orcs are a hard bunch, and ofcourse normal orcs are weaker.

Tolkien descripes that a normal orc are both smaller and weaker then a normal orc. but that there later is growing a larger type of orc as strong as a man, ie a better orc (not uruk hai), and i did give this orc ST5 as a normal human soldier/merc/thug.

2nd: yes orcs are dangerous to newbe adventures, but remeber that even starting characters are beaten easly by human soldier or merc's from the  OBaM book, who i have based the orcs on. and orc should be feared, War (soldier) Orcs are not made to be mass-slaughtered. for that i have stats for "normal orcs" to throw at the players.

3rd. Uruks are NOT meant to by thrown at players for fun, meeting a bunch of uruks and not flee is for heros and elite soldiers.

4th: hmm, you are right trolls need more endurence, this will be fixed.

5th: Yes we are playing in your group that Troll-hide is hard armour, therefor armour penetrating weapons can be used. this is up to yourself to decide. but gives more flavor if the characters know that they are on a "troll hunt" hehe.

6th: Yes the WAR orcs are hard, and well armoured, but i have made them on the base of the human NPC's in The of Beasts and men, mostly on the soldier, Mercenary. ie. i have tryed to balance them vs. these guys.
who i think they fit VERY powerlevel vice.

7th: yes again, the players need to be a hard bunch to fight them, but then again, starting characters are not that hard, and i love giving EXP so the players can evolve there characters the way they like, but still wanna have orcs, who they dont just kill like they where children.

8th: they to look at my other "stat sheets" by clicking the link below my signature, take a look on the normal "orcs" sheet and compare them to the war orcs.
I would very much like that you criticise them also, so i can change any obvious mistakes.

[Irmo]

Ok, a Middle Earth thread is going to get me out of temporary lurk mode ;) A few remarks, though: I am a)arguing solely on the basis of the written work b)arguing on the basis of my personal recollection of the texts and c)notoriously purist, so please don't take the criticism personal ;)

The main advantage of the majority of orcs is neither size, nor strength, nor skill. It is sheer numbers. If we look beyond the LotR for a moment and into the Silmarillion, an Orc host ambushed the Noldor under Feanor in the Dagor nuin Giliath, the Battle under Stars. The Noldor were taken by surprise, had not set up a proper camp yet, and were outnumbered by far. They also were a hodgepodge of women, children and complete civilians and in general had little battle experience.  Nevertheless, they not only beat back the orcs, they completely routed them and launched a counterattack. Your regular orc is a mook. Sneeze at him and his neck will break ;) Yes, orcs definitely lead a vicious lifestyle, but that doesn't mean the physically strongest, or most battle-proficient survive. Neither saves you from a dagger in the back.  It also means that a lot of them don't live long enough to acquire a lot of experience in open battle. As such, I'd argue against super-human attributes for orcs. The likes of Uruk-Hai etc. might match the best humans can field, but that's stretching things already, IMO.

Regarding equipment, I know of no evidence that plate armor (other than helmets obviously) exists. Given the level of technology needed to create it, it would certainly exist in Gondor, if it was around. We also don't see reference to it in a text Tolkien wrote at one point on the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, in which Numenorean exile military is described to some detail. Plate armor arose with the advent of water-driven smithies and blast furnaces, and there is no evidence for them in Middle-Earth, and whether volcanic forges such as Mount Doom would be used for such purposes I'd consider doubtful.

For the same reason, I'd be careful with greatswords, though crude types prone to breaking might perhaps exist.

[bergh]

First its all good points you are giving, and i can't argue against it.

But im almost only inpired by the move, and how i wanna use them in my game. i think we all have different views on how orcs are.
even tolkien sometimes tell conflicting points about them.

And yes my orcs are weak if you look at the Human soldier in OBaM.
and about the weapons i have taken almost from the movies, and i have added some extra who i think is orcish!

About armour, i can again only say i like the movies and have tryed to give them what armour i think was nessesary and seems likely they would use. and i think that i have read a chapter that the orcs was marching out of Ankmar wearing heavy armour, but maybe it was only in the Tolkien Besterium by David Day i read it.

[[MKF]Kapten]

Regarding equipment, I know of no evidence that plate armor (other than helmets obviously) exists. Given the level of technology needed to create it, it would certainly exist in Gondor, if it was around. We also don't see reference to it in a text Tolkien wrote at one point on the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, in which Numenorean exile military is described to some detail. Plate armor arose with the advent of water-driven smithies and blast furnaces, and there is no evidence for them in Middle-Earth, and whether volcanic forges such as Mount Doom would be used for such purposes I'd consider doubtful.

For the same reason, I'd be careful with greatswords, though crude types prone to breaking might perhaps exist.

I think it's not unreasonable to assume that Saruman had at least watermills and and blast furnaces. I think that the parts about Saruman in LotR was an allegory of the industrial society that Tolkien wasnt so fond of.

[Irmo]

I think it's not unreasonable to assume that Saruman had at least watermills and and blast furnaces. I think that the parts about Saruman in LotR was an allegory of the industrial society that Tolkien wasnt so fond of.

That depends on how stringent a standard of proof you apply: Is it enough for you that nothing speaks against it, or do you require actual evidence FOR it? Because in the latter case, things look rather bleak. Although Saruman no doubt had machinery that could be interpreted as water-powered smithies and furnaces, we see no evidence of him actually using that for the production of arms and amor. Indeed, Ugluk's band is mentioned as being armed with "great bows and short, broad-bladed swords"

[[MKF]Kapten]

Well that's true but I cant see what Saruman would produce with all that machinery if it wasnt weapons (considering that he was at war and everything). And why bother with machinery if you are just arming your men with bows and swords?

This is no proof more than my other comment but this isnt a court AFAIK so I just go by my common sense ~~.

[Irmo]

Well that's true but I cant see what Saruman would produce with all that machinery if it wasnt weapons (considering that he was at war and everything). And why bother with machinery if you are just arming your men with bows and swords?

He'd need mining operations and furnaces either way. And for what it's worth, precisely given Tolkien's attitude to machinery, he might just be engaged in wanton destruction or "boiling the waters of the Isen" as IIRC Eomer suggests. He could also need them to produce the blasting fires etc.

This is no proof more than my other comment but this isnt a court AFAIK so I just go by my common sense ~~.

Court isn't the only circumstance where proof is required, and literature analysis can very much be done in academic pursuit.