Doppelhander

[Richard_Strey]

Mayhem,
yes, for about two years now. I can, without any difficulty, read, interpret  and understand the texts. We've extensively worked with the material. Trained it (and other treatises) with steel, wooden and padded weapons. Solo drill, with partners and full-force, full target sparring. Fun stuff.

Turin,
from what you are saying, why don't you try to incorporate STR into the CP? Right now it is calculated by (WIT+AG)/2, right? Make it (WIT+AG+STR)/3 or so. That way, you'd have your influence. It's never seemed to be much of a deal to me, though. Anyone who is a fighter will have sufficient strength to use the weapon, anyone who isn't will get finished off, anyway. That's life.

[Salamander]

I study a combination of Lichtenauer, Talhoffer and Fiore for longsword, I.33 for sword and buckler (soon), Ott for grappling, Dolfechten Primer for dagger and Agrippa for rapier.

I also think Richard is correct. I am the stongest scholar in the class, but I am by no means the best swordsman, in fact my strength only gives me an advantage in the grapple. Swinging steel is a game of skill and speed, not strength. However, if you do need to add strength to the equation, Richard's suggestion is a pretty good one.

[tauman]

Alright before any other comment is made... a spadone and a doppelhander are completely different weapons.  A spadone is another term for a bastard sword, which almost never exceeded longsword length.

Actually, some of the Italian masters do use the term spadone to refer to the doppelhander (although the term 'spada da due mani' is also used).

For example, in chapter 3 [titled: "Dell'Uso, e della lunghezza, e del forte, e debole dello Spadone."] of Alfieri's book on the Spadone, he describes the correct length of the weapon:

"...e la sua lunghezza deve esser tanto lungo quanto e' un huomo proportionato, ne grande, ne picciolo..."

roughly:

"...and its length ought to be so long that it is proportional to a man, neither larger nor smaller..."

Clearly, he is not describing a bastard sword.

Now in typical Italian fashion, the term 'spadone' is a rather inexact term, being the word for sword ('spada') with the augmentative ending. The literal translation is just 'big sword.' I'm not familiar with the earlier Italian texts detailing the use of the longsword (such as Fiore dei Liberi's Flos Duellatorum), but it is entirely possible that the term 'spadone' is also used (although I would expect to see 'spada' used more often).

Steve

[tauman]

I find that for the most part, the real advantage that my extra strength gives me over my wife when we spar is one of endurance--my arms don't tire as quickly when we are wielding heavier weapons (sidesword, rapier, 17th cent. english cavalry sword), but for sport-weight weapons (duelling sabre), it's no advantage at all.

For most human-on-human combat with similar weapons, proper technique should allow you to handle the force of any the blow. The problem comes when you have a mismatch and you're trying to parry a greatsword with a duelling sabre or smallsword (admittedly, not likely to happen). In TROS, this would translate to trying to parry a huge sword wielded by a large troll or the likes. Trying to use a human-size sword or shield to stop the blow of a 8-10 troll's "longsword" would be a real nightmare.

BTW, how do you like Agrippa? I've looked at his rapier text but find it to more oriented more towards a heavier sword than the "traditional" rapier, as his guards are too far out of line to allow you to attacks of lighter rapiers and riposte in stesso tempo. Yet I find it to be an intriguing manual that would really work when encountering the stouter and shorter early rapiers (or "transitional sideswords" of the mid-to-late 1500s).

Steve

I study a combination of Lichtenauer, Talhoffer and Fiore for longsword, I.33 for sword and buckler (soon), Ott for grappling, Dolfechten Primer for dagger and Agrippa for rapier.

I also think Richard is correct. I am the stongest scholar in the class, but I am by no means the best swordsman, in fact my strength only gives me an advantage in the grapple. Swinging steel is a game of skill and speed, not strength. However, if you do need to add strength to the equation, Richard's suggestion is a pretty good one.

[[MKF]Kapten]

I find that for the most part, the real advantage that my extra strength gives me over my wife when we spar is one of endurance--my arms don't tire as quickly when we are wielding heavier weapons (sidesword, rapier, 17th cent. english cavalry sword), but for sport-weight weapons (duelling sabre), it's no advantage at all.

[/quote]

From what I have heard from the sword wielders on the forum, a fight will take a couple of seconds. It's not time enough to get tired, no matter how wild you are. So I guess in most TRoS- situations that really doesnt apply.

[tauman]

It might depend on whether or not you're wearing harness--I don't know (having never fought in harness, and being unfamiliar with how long it would take two skilled warriors wearing it to decide a contest of arms). While a one-on-one fight only lasts a few seconds, a battle can last far longer (you don't want to exhaust yourself on your first opponent).

Steve

I find that for the most part, the real advantage that my extra strength gives me over my wife when we spar is one of endurance--my arms don't tire as quickly when we are wielding heavier weapons (sidesword, rapier, 17th cent. english cavalry sword), but for sport-weight weapons (duelling sabre), it's no advantage at all.

From what I have heard from the sword wielders on the forum, a fight will take a couple of seconds. It's not time enough to get tired, no matter how wild you are. So I guess in most TRoS- situations that really doesnt apply.

[Salamander]

BTW, how do you like Agrippa? I've looked at his rapier text but find it to more oriented more towards a heavier sword than the "traditional" rapier, as his guards are too far out of line to allow you to attacks of lighter rapiers and riposte in stesso tempo. Yet I find it to be an intriguing manual that would really work when encountering the stouter and shorter early rapiers (or "transitional sideswords" of the mid-to-late 1500s).

Steve

I am still in the basic points of Agrippa, but man is some of this stuff interesting. We are currently learning the fine control of the point and setting aside as well as the lunge, the thrust from the lunge and double lunges... The instructor has mixed in some of the later stuff as well, from what I can tell... It is all similar, but different from what I have learned in the long sword. If you have used a long sword in the German Tradition, then you know what I mean.

So far I have liked it. Even the stuff that looked kind of crazy to me. I intend to do more cut & thrust fence on my own time as I plan on getting one of these... http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item111.html and one of these... http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item198.html in the New Year of '05.

[Turin]

One thing to take into account for the advantages of strength in combat - Sparring is different than real combat.  It helps prepare you, but many things that occur in real sparring are different than in a real fight (not that I've been able to test this idea with real weapons, but I'm comparing it to sparring in boxing, martial arts and tournament wrestling, compared with actual fights).  

I've heard from some recreationists that a shield will hold up for a very long time if taken care of, and that they would almost never be damaged in combat.  In that case, the romans would not have to worry about replacing shields when fighting dacian's with falx's, which was a problem recorded roman historians.  I think a blow from someone not trying to kill their opponent with blunted weapons is far different from real combat.

There are also many moves to bring strength into play to give a combat advantage which are not allowed and to dangerous when sparring.

[tauman]

Ironic, I have the sword, and the dagger is on order (four months of payments and waiting, but it was worth it). Not to toot my own horn, but there are pictures of my instructor (and friend) and I showing the Bolognese sidesword guards here: http://www.salvatorfabris.com/BologneseGuards.html
and I'm using that sword. Anyway, it would be the perfect sword for Agrippa. After you work with Agrippa for awhile, check out Marozzo (a predecessor) and Fabris (a successor).

I haven't done much German stuff, but I know what you mean about similarities.

Steve

BTW, how do you like Agrippa? I've looked at his rapier text but find it to more oriented more towards a heavier sword than the "traditional" rapier, as his guards are too far out of line to allow you to [parry] attacks of lighter rapiers and riposte in stesso tempo. Yet I find it to be an intriguing manual that would really work when encountering the stouter and shorter early rapiers (or "transitional sideswords" of the mid-to-late 1500s).

Steve

I am still in the basic points of Agrippa, but man is some of this stuff interesting. We are currently learning the fine control of the point and setting aside as well as the lunge, the thrust from the lunge and double lunges... The instructor has mixed in some of the later stuff as well, from what I can tell... It is all similar, but different from what I have learned in the long sword. If you have used a long sword in the German Tradition, then you know what I mean.

So far I have liked it. Even the stuff that looked kind of crazy to me. I intend to do more cut & thrust fence on my own time as I plan on getting one of these... http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item111.html and one of these... http://www.armor.com/2000/catalog/item198.html in the New Year of '05.