Doppelhander

[Starshadow]

Hi there, just a little quickie here.

Are there any strenght requirements to use the doppelahander sword?
Or maybe I should ask what strenght is required to use it properly?

I imagine a person with less than average to average (>4) would have problems wielding such a major piece of steel?

[bergh]

st 4 sounds ok, but really as many things in roleplaying games, there are no rules about it, so please make one your self.

I my self think that a large troll will get 2 extra weapon ranges becouse his arm i twice as long and the club he is using is twice as long as a normal human sized club!

There are no rules about it, but i use my own, anyway st4 sound ok by me for a doppelhander, maybe even 5 should be had. and greatswords 4.
As you say yourself, maybe a lesser person can lift it, but can he wield use it for combat?

[Caz]

Yeah, I wouldn't restrict its use from weaker humans so much as give it an activation cost for anything but thrusting.

[Starshadow]

Yeah, that's something like I thought meself.

Extra cost for swings if ST less than 5 sounds reasonable.

Okay. Thankee!

[Salamander]

I think that if there is going to be an activation cost, I would set minimum ST at 4. So activation costs would be for 3 and less in my book... Maybe have the activation cost be the difference between 4 and the Character's ST?

[Tash]

Why not just hit the whole CP once and be done with it.  Say CP -3 or -4 if the character isn't Str 4/5?  The reasons are twofold: first its easier than adding a point cost to every swing, second trying to hold on to a weapon that large if you weren't strong enough to control it properly would effect every action taken, not just atacks.

[Mayhem1979]

A Doppelhander weighs a grand total of six pounds.  The only thing that is going to limit it's use is it's sheer length... but seeing as it's more often used like a pole-arm than a  sword, that's not really a concern.

No minimum strength needed, no penalties for being weak.  Maybe for being exceptionally short and trying to swing it like a normal sword...  




No, strength really only comes into play with bows and their draw strengths.

[Bob Richter]

A typical sledgehammer wieghs about 5 pounds. When swung, the strength of the wielder will determine how quickly it can be recovered to swing again.

How is a six-pound doppelhander different?

It's not.

Stronger people use bigger/longer swords/clubs/etc. better/faster, period.

And TROS rules don't really reflect this, but it's never been an issue for us, we simply choose weapons that suit our strength.

[Salamander]

A typical sledgehammer wieghs about 5 pounds. When swung, the strength of the wielder will determine how quickly it can be recovered to swing again.

How is a six-pound doppelhander different?

It's not.

Stronger people use bigger/longer swords/clubs/etc. better/faster, period.

And TROS rules don't really reflect this, but it's never been an issue for us, we simply choose weapons that suit our strength.

Actually, I can see where Mayhem is coming from. The sledge hammer has all its weight in the head, very end heavy, the work is done by you and you alone. In the case of a Doppelhander, there is a point of balance only a few inches in front of the lugs. This allows for the weapon to do some of the work as well.

[BPetroff93]

Swords are balanced, a sledgehammer is not.   Actually Ron made an interesting point in one of his essays about TROS.  I myself have been guilty of trying to tinker with the various sim based rules of the game but the game isn't really about that in play.  "Realism", whether acurate or not, is not the issue present in actual play.

[Tash]

I would still think that strength does come into play even with light weapons.
 
My the heavier of my two Katana weighs in at maybe 3 pounds.  This is nothing for me and I can easily use it with only 1 hand.  In game terms I'd probably have an Str of 5 or 6.
When I give the same sword to my wife, who barley tops 100lbs soaking wet and probably has a str 3 at best, she has to wield it in two hands and moves like I do when I am using my overwieght stage combat Claymore.

Also I think a Doppelhander is pretty clumsy as weapons go, its not just a "big longsword" its more like a poleaxe.  They weren't wielded with finesse from anything I've read.

[Turin]

I agree with Mayhem.  The sword would probably be of the proper length and weight in accordance with the user.  It may be 4.5 pounds, not 6.  A weak user would already be penalized for the lower damage their strength would result in.  The only think that is if the weapon is extremely shorter  than other weapons of its kind, a length reduction change may be in order

IMO mimimum strength for weapons is largely an artificial RPG idea, designed to give combat advantages for those who put more points in strength.

Although I think strength should factor into the combat pool along with dex, as parrying a heavier blow is more difficult.

[Mayhem1979]

A typical sledgehammer wieghs about 5 pounds. When swung, the strength of the wielder will determine how quickly it can be recovered to swing again.

First off, nobody fighting with a maul (which is as close to a sledgehammer as you're gonna find in combat) or similar weapon will ever swing-recover-swing.  Done right that weapon should never stop moving, you swing once and use that momentum to keep it swinging unitl the other guy's down or dead.

How is a six-pound doppelhander different?

Becasue in a doppelhander the weight is not concentrated in one big lump at the end of the shaft.  That 6 pounds is spread out over 6 feet.  In fact, you are holding the heavier end of the weapon.

It's not.

How easy a weapon is to handle has very little to do with its weight, and everything to do with how it is BALANCED.  So there is in fact a HUGE difference.  

A weapon with allt he weight on the end is difficult for anyone to handle, strength doesn't change that all that much.

How difficult a weapon is to handle (the weapon TN's) is where this is reflected.

Stronger people use bigger/longer swords/clubs/etc. better/faster, period.

No.  How strong you are has little do do with anything other than how hard you can make that weapon hit.  This is already reflected in the fact that your strength is one of the main fators in figuring out how much damage has been dealt.

And TROS rules don't really reflect this, but it's never been an issue for us, we simply choose weapons that suit our strength.

Actually, the rules reflect how things really work just fine.



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I would still think that strength does come into play even with light weapons.

My the heavier of my two Katana weighs in at maybe 3 pounds. This is nothing for me and I can easily use it with only 1 hand. In game terms I'd probably have an Str of 5 or 6.
When I give the same sword to my wife, who barley tops 100lbs soaking wet and probably has a str 3 at best, she has to wield it in two hands and moves like I do when I am using my overwieght stage combat Claymore.

Two questions there...

How tall is your wife, and how tall are you?

Does she have any training in swordplay?

Both of these things make a big difference in how easy a sword is to handle, much more than how strong you are.

Also I think a Doppelhander is pretty clumsy as weapons go, its not just a "big longsword" its more like a poleaxe. They weren't wielded with finesse from anything I've read.

Doppelhanders were somewhat clumsy weapons when held and swung like a normal sword.  But when used from the half-sword position they were very graceful.  They just handle more like short pole-arms in that position than swords.


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Although I think strength should factor into the combat pool along with dex, as parrying a heavier blow is more difficult.

Not if you're doing it right.  

Strength factors into damage, but it's not going to affect your CP in any way.

[Tash]

I'm 6' 3" with a lot of mass.  I can actually weild the aforementioned Claymore with one hand, though recoveries are difficult.  I probably wouldn't have trouble doing a 1 hand maneuver with a 6 pound sword of equal length.  She is 5' 8" but is built like an Elf (really, people at our wedding thought she was some kind of Fey creature).  She has exactly the same issues with the Katana as I have with the claymore.  There is not that much of a difference in our height, even less difference with our arm lendth.  So where is her problem coming from if the only real differnce is that I weight more than twice what she does and much stronger?

As for training I have some with swordplay (Kendo/Kenjutsu and Shim Gum Do) and a lot more with unarmed martial arts (Shaolin Kenpo Karate and Bando).  She has none beside what she's learned sparring with me (we used to do that a lot for fun) but has incredible coordination, balance, and agility.  She is a tough match if I don't use my reach and footwork advantage to keep her on the defensive.

From what I see strength is a factor in maneuvering a weapon for the same reason it is a factor in damage: more strength = more potential force applied to the weapon.  Newton First Law supports this: if an opject is in motion it will remain in motion until acted upon by an external force.  If the wielder of a weapon cannot exert enough force with their muscles to overcome that weapon's velocity while it is in motion they will have a harder time controling the path of that weapon.  This would include both recover and aiming an attack.  I agree its not as large a factor as many RPGs make it (*cough*D&D adding Str modifier to hit*cough*) but it does factor in, particularly when weilding a larger weapon or when you are of lower strength.
   
If I'm wrong I'd really like to know why.  Both my wife and I are getting more and more interested in swordsmanship again and are thinking of joining the ARMA together.  So an explanation of where my misunderstanding lies would be appreciated.

[Mayhem1979]

Unfortunately without seeing you two in action and seeing the weapons you're using I really can't say much else.  But I've seen a woman who is barely over 5 foot tall use a greatsword with a fair amount of skill and the only thing that's ever given her any trouble with it is its length compared with her height.

She can kick me ass, that much is for sure, and I have 9 inches on her and can pick the girl up with one arm.

Quite honestly, once your sword is moving, how well you move it isn't all that effected by strength unless you're weilding it in single chops that require you to recover after each blow.  You really shouldn't be doing that...  :)  Every swing should flow to another or end in a guard postion.

Once you swing it's actually fairly easy to control and guide the tip because you have the heavier end in your hands, once again, it's a matter of the swords balance, not it's weight.  Your bottom hand should be doing the guiding from the opposite side of the  lever, with your  front hand acting as the fulcrum, so it takes very little energy of motion to do fine control stuff.


That make any sense?