New review at RPG.net

[[MKF]Kapten]

No system is munchkinproof. If someone is hell bent on creating a war machine he will create a war machine no matter what system it is. The counter to this is often to change the circumstances of the game; make one adventure heavy on political intrigue and the combat slave will all of a sudden be very unimportant; noone cares what the slave wants. If the PC is a run away criminal it becomes even worse. Mix that with adventures where there is a lot of combat where the slave can excel and you have a mix where noone feels unimportant. Then people will make diverse PCs.

If you on the other hand only make adventures where the PCs fights all the time and noone cares whatever you are a slave or belong to a 500 years old noble family of course the players will make combat slaves. Noone wants to feel cheated and everyone wants to feel useful. This process is of course easier if the players arent trying to beat the system all the time.

All in all, I dont think this problem has so much to do with the system as it has to do with players and GMs.

[pete_darby]

Well, as goes the "munchkin" problem, I always find it's a bad idea to deal with these things in game (from hard experience).

All you tend to end up with is the player getting frustrated and leaving the game... because, in making the combat god character, they're writing a wish list for the game to come, and it says "Please give me lots of combat, I've been a good boy and made a really, really good combat character."

So you give them politics... and they think you hate them.

You could always talk to them, striaghten out expectations before it gets personal. Or, tRoS, you could point out that the "combat advantage" isn't gained during character creation, it's gained by a) learning to use the combat system to best advantage, and b) Getting and spending SA's like they're going out of fashion.

Once they grok that, they're grooving on SA's... and your plotting starts to write itself.

[Salamander]

Im my gaming group one of the characters choose slave as an background option, and when the game started he was the best fighter, but with no gear, then he borrowed some money from the landless noble and vupti now he got nice gear and is the best fighter in the group, and all the others has been angry since.

I don't know how to make him down to his "slave & prisoner" level again, he got good clothes and fine weapons, he canceled his F priority in around an hour of game time......what to do now as a GM?

Well, first of all, who would trust a slave with their money? For all he knows the slave will just turn around and stab him in the back to avoid having to pay off the loan. A landless noble would certainly not loan money to a slave without any gaurantees. And why is the slave being allowed to purchase this equipment? The noble should have gone and purchased the slave a plain weapon and some simple armour and then made him do most of the dangerous work! Secondly, who's going to sell a slave anything, especially weapons and armour of fine quality?

In my campaign world I had one player who made a slave, he has not played it yet and he's seriously thinking about not playing him now. Why? Becasue it would be too damn difficult for him to be anything besides a slave. So he is thinking about making a new replacement character.

In regards to briging the slave back down to his level, maybe have a discussion with the player of the munchkin slave and let him know there are definite problems and see if you can't work something out in the story line. Maybe suggest the watch will bust him and arrest him. Then the noble whom he owes money to will be forced to bail him out or lose his investment. Then the slave owes him even more money for bailing him out, but it would make for a heckuva story. Of course the weapons and armour would have been sold to pay his fines. It's either that or a neck stretching...

All in all, this isn't about making a game munchkin proof, its about making a better roleplaying game. Why would a slave have a truckload of proficiencies? I would more than likely see a slave with more points in attributes, skills and gifts/flaws. We have one player who made a common peasant for her character. She had a 4 in her dagger skill to start, that was it. Her points went into the above. Why? Because, "It just doesn't seem right that a peasant girl would be such a good fighter". Her words not mine. Sarah knows how to play this game. Even when she didn't know HOW to play the game, she was playing it better than many people I know!

[bergh]

problem is that my group has traveled to another part of the country, and how do people reconise him as a slave?

[ZenDog]

By the Large 'S' branded into his forehead?

[Valamir]

problem is that my group has traveled to another part of the country, and how do people reconise him as a slave?

His old master shows up?

Consider...he's starting to make his way in the world.  Earn the respect of important people and what not...all of the sudden, at a banquet for high ranking visitors who've come for a market week, or a tournament, the character is called out, by his old master...even better if he escaped...

Then have his social house of cards collapse.  Money doesn't guarentee you status.  Even the great wealth of Monte Cristo didn't amount to much when the truth was revealed.

The embarassment, the public humiliation, the fact that now whereever he goes in the region people know he's an imposter.

And don't look for solace among the lower classes.  Historically speaking the commoners resented other commoners who tried to rise above their station..."tried to get all uppity didja?  Thought you waz better'n us dja?  Well look atchu now..." as the stones begin to fly.

[Caz]

In the game just like in real life, social status can change.  Especially if no one knows his origins.  Hope noone finds out though hehe

[Brian Leybourne]

I'm a regular here, but fearing repercussions to my normal login I created this second account (that I never intend to use again) so everybody "hates" this login instead of my normal one.

Heh, you probably didn't know then that admins have the ability to see the IP address an account has connected from, and all the other accounts that have ever connected from the same IP address. Don't worry, I wont blow your secret. ;-)

Although it was amusing to see you point-counterpoint yourself (to an extent).

For the record, yeah, I think some of the reviewers comments were spot on. I don't think his motivations were, but that's another issue. There are a few aspects of the book which could use improving, Jake's never denied that. It is, after all, a first edition. And it's a lot better than many/most first editions of other RPG's are/were. Comparing it to a game like D&D that has been around for more than 20 years and has been through many revisions and had literally hundreds of designers working on it over the years is, well, silly.

*shrug*. They can't all be good reviews.

Brian.

[[MKF]Kapten]

problem is that my group has traveled to another part of the country, and how do people reconise him as a slave?

His old master shows up?

Consider...he's starting to make his way in the world.  Earn the respect of important people and what not...all of the sudden, at a banquet for high ranking visitors who've come for a market week, or a tournament, the character is called out, by his old master...even better if he escaped...

Then have his social house of cards collapse.  Money doesn't guarentee you status.  Even the great wealth of Monte Cristo didn't amount to much when the truth was revealed.

The embarassment, the public humiliation, the fact that now whereever he goes in the region people know he's an imposter.

And don't look for solace among the lower classes.  Historically speaking the commoners resented other commoners who tried to rise above their station..."tried to get all uppity didja?  Thought you waz better'n us dja?  Well look atchu now..." as the stones begin to fly.

Also consider that a slave hasnt got any training in how high class people behave and that a slave will most likely have done some heavy labour. This will show and tell the nobles in the new place that everything is not alright.

I purposely left out scholar slaves and mamluks and the like. I consider their practical standing far higher than an F-priority.

[ZenDog]

Another thing to consider is the slaves status before slavery, it's possible he was born a slave, but it's also possible that he had come from a rulling class before becoming a slave.

For example in the greek world when city states warred with each other the losers became slaves. So one minute you could be a wealthy citizen with the right (and money and training) to carry arms, and then find yourself wearing a slave collar and working in a field living of gruel.  Same for the Celts and their European ilk, the slaves they took were the warriors (and their famillies) who they had taken in war, people who in their own society would have had the same status as the people who now owned them.

I suspect (and I may be wrong) that some of the players in the reviewers group may have made slave characters took the benefits and then conviently forgot the downside.

As to balance, realism, etc who cares if you pick Prof A for class yes it means you cant have both mega attributes or mega weaps proffiencies, or be the most skilled. If you don't have prof A for class you still only get to really excell in one of those, you can't have everything topped out.  

Unless of course that's the way you want to play becasue after all, It's not like Jake's gonna kick down your door and come burstin in with a dopplehander cos you might have strayed from his rules as written.

From everything I read in the posts attached to this review and especially the other one (things like TRoS has had this coming-?WTF?) it just seems like some of the advertisng blurb upset some people so much that that they felt the need to attack TRoS which is I think just ever so slightly strange.

[Brian Leybourne]

Unless of course that's the way you want to play becasue after all, It's not like Jake's gonna kick down your door and come burstin in with a dopplehander cos you might have strayed from his rules as written.

Actually, he did do that to a couple of guys early on. These days we all pretty much stick to the rules...

:-)

Brian

[ZenDog]

So er what is the best defense against someone in the aggressive stance weilding a Dopplehander?

[kenjib]

So er what is the best defense against someone in the aggressive stance weilding a Dopplehander?

Tail between the legs and headed out the door.

quickly

[Richard_Strey]

Quarterstaff thrust or bash to the head, running him over with a haycart, using either a bow or crossbow, hiring a few mercs... noone is invincible. Ever.

[luke silburn]

So er what is the best defense against someone in the aggressive stance weilding a Dopplehander?

Well according to 'Polaris' in the... ahem.... voluble discussion engendered by that review on rpg.net, the best defense is to drop red and throw all your dice into a preemptive bash with an attack-tuned fine quarterstaff.

This is because this is the best thing to do in *any* situation where you are using TROS combat mechanics as the resolution system for the encounter.

Regards
Luke