Newbie and some questions about AP

[lightcastle]

Hi everybody.

I should write a long introduction about how much I love HQ, stumbling across it while trying to find a system that did what I wanted it to do, etc. etc..

But I have the feeling I'd be preaching to the choir. :)

Also, it's late and I should go to sleep.

I haven't had a chance to look through the 7-odd pages of posts here, so  this may have already been answered. If so, just point me where I need to go.

To my main question: I love the AP idea for extended contests, I like the way it rolls in different aspects of a struggle as long as you make it about a conflict, not just a series of tasks. (As I understand it)

But I'm not sure I think the first skill used should define the AP you have. IT seems that it would lead to a lot of people using a barely relevent skill early to get the advantage and then switching off.

The thought that immediately hit my mind was two nearly-equal swordsman square off for their dramatic showdown - a duel to the death. But our hero has "Snappy one-liner insults" at 15W2 and starts with a barrage of insults. gives himself an AP of 55 plus whatever augments he's got (assuming I understand the math right) and his opponent has no choice but to defend with a base 14 (assuming he has no appropriate stat for the moment.)

While I am all for the snappy patter being an augment in the fight, it seems wrong to let it define the advantage points so completely if this is a dramatic duel to the death. It's only tangentially related to the goal.

I realize as narrator, I have final say, but what's the general thinking on this? Do I just make sure to find an appropriate ability to resist with (Hatred of hero? Cold-blooded killer? Grim and humourless?)  and go from there? Do I rule it's an augment only?

I've got some more AP-related questions, but I'll start with this one.

Thanks all,
LC

[Wulf]

The thought that immediately hit my mind was two nearly-equal swordsman square off for their dramatic showdown - a duel to the death. But our hero has "Snappy one-liner insults" at 15W2 and starts with a barrage of insults. gives himself an AP of 55 plus whatever augments he's got (assuming I understand the math right) and his opponent has no choice but to defend with a base 14 (assuming he has no appropriate stat for the moment.)

Firstly, if you have Snappy one-liner insults 15W2, your other skills are either going to be comparable, in which it doesn't matter, or far poorer, in which case you're going to suffer if someone else starts the fight, or your opponent isn't affected (can't speak the language, it's an anaconda, he's deaf, he's a deaf anaconda that can't speak the language, etc).

In this case, the opponent is a swordsman. Those augments must be relevant to the ability used, so he can only augment Snappy one line insults. Any sword augments will take an action each during the contest, so unless he sticks to verbal attacks he'll be using his base ability when he switches to swordplay.

Likewise, the intent of the contest must be relevant, so he couldn't declare an attempt to kill with that ability (although he can freely change intent during a contest, so that's a minor point).

Then, the opponent gets to act with the ability of his choice. OK, he'll maybe have very poor AP, but he can choose any reasonable ability, including Skewer Loudmouth 10W2. He can't bid many AP, but he can still win the contest - he's caught off-guard, maybe confused, maybe uncertain, but he's still capable). If the Snappy insults swordsman can't defend himself, he'll lose anyway.

Lastly, the default resistance wouldn't be 14. That's the default against magic, for a start, is only a last resort if there's no relevant ability (even after Improvisation Modifiers), and would be highly unimaginative (I'd even allow the use of stuff like a Warrior Keyword, etc.). If there's absolutely, positively, not one applicable resistance against a mundane ability, the resistance is 6.

So, all in all, there's many a complication in the tale.

Wulf

[Janus]

Sorry to hijack the thread, I also have an AP related question.

How does initiative go?

Say two groups face each other, the players want to go after the NPCs with close combat and the NPCs want to go against the players with some mental ranged attack. How do you determine who has the initiative? (and as such gets to pick their most appropriate skills for the extended contest to determine the APs.)

Janus

P.S. BTW the default resistance of 14 applies for extended contests if one doesn't have any relevant abilities, not just for magic.

[Wulf]

How does initiative go?

It goes "You go first, you go second, you go third...". How you choose which is which is up to you. AP bid order, greatest fraction of total AP bid, greatest AP remaining, most energetic action first, or just clockwise or anticlockwise.

Wulf

[Wulf]

P.S. BTW the default resistance of 14 applies for extended contests if one doesn't have any relevant abilities, not just for magic.

Hmm, yes, 6 is now the default ability rating, but 14 the default resistance. Doesn't actually make much sense, but it is in the rules.

Wulf

[Mike Holmes]

The primary ability used has to make sense with the goal in question. That is, if the goal of the player is to kill the other guy with his sword, then he can't do that with Snappy Insults. Period. There's no way that this ability can propell a sword in a manner that will kill the opponent. From a metagame viewpoint, it makes differentiation of character abilites pointless if you say that any ability can be used to accomplish any goal; you might as well just have one stat for every character without a descriptor (Trollbabe, anyone). Appropriateness is still important for a game that describes characters in such detail.

Now, if the goal had been to embarrass the other guy to death, then maybe Snappy Insults would work as primary ability. Depending on the believability. I think a more reasonable goal would be something like "Embarrass the opponent so badly that they'll never face me again." A player announcing that would get full AP from his Insult ability in my game. In any case, if you think that something isn't somehow completely appropriate, then you as Narrator have the ability to send that message in terms of an "Improv Modifier."

Now, that said, the guy with the Insult ability is going to do OK, even in the sword fight to the death. Because, though he's supposed to use the primary ability on the first round (something that I personally think isn't really a great rule), he can change to another ability in later rounds. And I think that insulting his opponent can lead to his opponent's demise. Basically, after the first round, the insulter will use his insult ability to get his opponent off balance so to speak, and close the deal. I agree that there's usually a personality trait that's applicable in defending against something like Insulting, but not always. If not, then the other guy is going to have to resist with a 6, not 14. 6 is the default as I understand it.

Janus, can you cite me where it says that 14 is default for extended contests? Does anybody know if there's errata clarifying this one?

What does an insult that causes AP look like? The player declares, "I cleverly insult my opponent's ancestry, to get him angry and make him overcommit to an attack." If he succeeds, the Narrator narrates somethink like, "Enraged by your words, he thrusts foolishly putting him off balance as you easily evade."

I think that most any ability can be used in some way in the short run to do in an opponent if you play creatively enough. But the overall framework of the goal of a contest still says something about it. Meaning you can't use just any ability for any goal (and many will have Improv Modifiers). Despite this, however, alternate abilities can be used to get you closer to your goal within a round of an extended contest - it all depends on cleverly stating your goals for that round.

Mike

[Janus]

Janus, can you cite me where it says that 14 is default for extended contests? Does anybody know if there's errata clarifying this one?

HeroQuest p. 66, second column, the first 2-3 lines.

[Mike Holmes]

Hmmm. Nothing in the errata FAQ about it. Does anybody have an insight into why the discrepancy? I don't have my book here but I'll check it tonight.

If we can't clear it up here, we can try over at the HQ-Rules mailinglist. This sounds vaguely familiar somehow...

Mike

[Janus]

My guess would be that it's not worth doing a contest if the resistance is inferior to 14, you might as well just use the automatic success rules if that's the case.

[Mike Holmes]

That might be true. This pertains just to extended contests, right? I mean it's specifically mentioned there? Or does this seem to pertain to all contests?

If the latter, then what would be the point of noting that the default for mundane abilities is 6? If you never use that number, what's the point?

Mike

[Wulf]

That might be true. This pertains just to extended contests, right? I mean it's specifically mentioned there? Or does this seem to pertain to all contests?

If the latter, then what would be the point of noting that the default for mundane abilities is 6? If you never use that number, what's the point?

Mike

14 is noted as the 'passive resistance' for ALL contests (p61, 'Resistance', 2nd para), in the same paragraph as 6 is mentioned as the default ability. It is also noted that the GM can declare a particularly difficult resistance, or one in which the character cannot reasonably resist, (like resisting being tied up while unconscious) at only 6, but that he might as well make this an automatic success.

The difference between 'passive resistance' and 'being unconscious' is not mentioned. However, 6 would still be the ability level for ACTIVE use of a non-existant ability, while 14 would be the resistance to some other ability.

Wulf

[Janus]

14 is also mentioned as default resistance if the narrator is not sure for Simple Contests.

However in the sample resistances on p 274 and 275 you do have some resistances (very few) that are less than 14.

So I guess you could have resistance less than 14 and do contests with them if you feel like it. 14 is not an absolute minimum, just some default value to use when you are not sure (HeroQues tending not to do exhaustive listing of attributes). If you are certain the resistance is 6, then there you go.

[Mike Holmes]

Good notes, both of you. Personally, I use resistances less than 14 all the time. I think it's a fun part of play.

The unconscious thing isn't an issue. The contest rules are for actual conflicts. As long as you determine the conflict, then you'll have numbers to use. For example, if you want to kill somebody who's unconscious, and there's nothing really stopping you, then you just kill them. No contest. To get a person unconscious probably takes a complete victory anyhow, so you could have killed them then - or, rather, they've already lost the contest to stay alive, and are at the mercy of those around them.

OTOH, if you had a contest to kill somebody before their friends got to you to stop you, then you'd roll against the friend's ratings. If you were trying to stick a peasant knife through the hide of a rhino, before it woke back up, then that might be a contest.

There has to be conflict of some interesting sort to be a contest, else the automatic success rule kicks in. I think that "default" rolls are actually particularly interesting, because they can be so "slice of life." We did one once where we all rolled against our default "grooming" and such to see how good looking we could make ourselves for a social gathering. That sort of thing is fun, and I'd encourage people to try it out.

So, I don't see a problem here, except with the notion that the book seems to be promoting in terms of the defaults being pointless. I'm not sure why they're even mentioning them. You don't develop up from 6 (13), and it's saying not to use them, so...I don't get it.

Mike

[buserian]

Janus, can you cite me where it says that 14 is default for extended contests? Does anybody know if there's errata clarifying this one?

HeroQuest p. 66, second column, the first 2-3 lines.

I note that this section is for the narrator defining the resistance to the hero's action. That is, if there is no appropriate active resistance to the hero, the default resistance "of the world" is 14. This does not apply if it is two heroes contesting, or if it is the "world" verbally insulting the hero.

Isn't this how it always works? The hero defends with 6 if he has no appropriate ability/resistance, but the default resistance against the hero is always 14. Unfair, but I think that's how it is supposed to work.

buserian

[Wulf]

HeroQuest p. 66, second column, the first 2-3 lines.

I note that this section is for the narrator defining the resistance to the hero's action.

p61, however, is clearly defining the hero's resistances.

Wulf